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Old 26-01-19, 14:24   #1
Kie Diddy
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folding trips to flop shove

Hello. A hand from DTD £150 Grand Prix for which everyone - including the dealer (but that's another story) made fun of me for, not that I mind that...

Blinds 3k/6k with 6k button ante

Villain 1 seems competent and had played a number of interesting hands throughout the day where he took odd lines, value bet thin etc so was definately decent.

Villain 2 was just splashing around and his stack had yoyo'd as he was basically just playing over-aggro style that most at the table seemed to have adjusted to.

Villian 1 (220k) opens hijack for 14k
Vllain 2 (300k) call on button
Hero (250k) calls from BB with K3


FLOP: KK2

Hero checks
Villain 1 checks
Villan 2 bets 34k

Hero calls the 34k
Villain 1 shoves for 206k

Villain 2 fold
Hero folds

begin mocking...

Last edited by Kie Diddy; 26-01-19 at 17:17.
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Old 26-01-19, 14:51   #2
Dice75
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I can only really narrow his range down to a superior Kx protecting against a FD. Now its a paired board so the merits of this are something else.

Even if Villain has taken some weird line with AA or another PP shoving here is surely suicide and if its a bare FD, well....but based on your description only the FD seems likely.

I'm sure someone can put it through a solver.

How was shover's demeanour as you were thinking about it? Is there a shot clock in operation in D2D?

I know we have the K blocker and I know you said he took some strange lines (22 would constitute that here lol).

As played I think I possibly sigh fold and go back to work with 35bbs. Interesting one though as I assume its multi re-entry.
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Old 26-01-19, 17:40   #3
Hectorjelly
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Snap call, you are way too short to fold trips, there are loads of hands that could take this line and you are beating.
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Old 26-01-19, 17:43   #4
Kie Diddy
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I'm new to PIOSOLVER but did my best to input some sensible ranges in as similar a spot as I could create, and it has me calling K9+ and K2 100% of time, calling all worse kings an ever reducing proportion of time, with K3 being almost exactly 50/50 between call and fold, and only 30% call if I tighten Villain's range... (pat's self on back)

I'd be interested if a better user of solvers gets something similar??

Notably, based on my input PIO shoves nut flush only about 1% of time in villains shoes...

This was last hand before break and therefore last hand while re-entry was open, and no shot clock in use at this point...

I also had relatively recent history with villain where I hero called pot sized river bet with KK on a A hi run out (he had AQ, sigh) so my feeling was he'd be less inclined to slow play if he had AK,KQ etc...
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Old 26-01-19, 17:46   #5
Kie Diddy
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Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
Snap call, you are way too short to fold trips, there are loads of hands that could take this line and you are beating.
this was certainly the consensus at the table in terms of being too short to fold, it's 170 to call to win to approx. 450 and folding leaves us with an about average stack...so I don't think it's trivial...

I read a thing about looking for opportunities to make big folds every now and then this just felt like one of those times ...
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Old 26-01-19, 18:32   #6
Hectorjelly
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You start the hand with around 40bbs, this is too short to consider folding trips in a raised pot. With that stack depth you never have the information required to fold, If you were against two tight players it would still be a call, but as described its a snap. I don't think the solver will be of much use given one player is so likely to be out of line.
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Old 26-01-19, 22:34   #7
winkey66
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Why play K3 if ur gonna hit so hard an yet fold. Wot flop do u want bar KK3, KKK r 333 ? Even 33K U cud be behind pocket kings
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Old 26-01-19, 22:51   #8
Kie Diddy
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Originally Posted by winkey66 View Post
Why play K3 if ur gonna hit so hard an yet fold. Wot flop do u want bar KK3, KKK r 333 ? Even 33K U cud be behind pocket kings
2001 just called, it wants its poker logic back...
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Old 26-01-19, 23:02   #9
Arazi
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I think itís a fold.
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Old 27-01-19, 11:58   #10
Murdrum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kie Diddy View Post
I'm new to PIOSOLVER but did my best to input some sensible ranges in as similar a spot as I could create, and it has me calling K9+ and K2 100% of time, calling all worse kings an ever reducing proportion of time, with K3 being almost exactly 50/50 between call and fold, and only 30% call if I tighten Villain's range... (pat's self on back)

I'd be interested if a better user of solvers gets something similar??

Notably, based on my input PIO shoves nut flush only about 1% of time in villains shoes...

This was last hand before break and therefore last hand while re-entry was open, and no shot clock in use at this point...

I also had relatively recent history with villain where I hero called pot sized river bet with KK on a A hi run out (he had AQ, sigh) so my feeling was he'd be less inclined to slow play if he had AK,KQ etc...
As HJ pointed out the application of PIOSolver in this spot may be skewed given how out of line the player may be, that said, it offers a good baseline if nothing else.

In game I find a fold very difficult tbh, perhaps sharing the ranges you used could be worthwhile as giving a villain a range may be not be as objective as we often think.
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Old 27-01-19, 12:39   #11
premierstone
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Originally Posted by Arazi View Post
I think itís a fold.
So do I but there is no way in hell I fold it in real time but I certainly wouldnt be showing the fold, that just seems very exploitable for the rest of the table.
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Old 27-01-19, 16:23   #12
Hectorjelly
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Originally Posted by brady23 View Post
As HJ pointed out the application of PIOSolver in this spot may be skewed given how out of line the player may be, that said, it offers a good baseline if nothing else.

In game I find a fold very difficult tbh, perhaps sharing the ranges you used could be worthwhile as giving a villain a range may be not be as objective as we often think.
Actually just thinking about it again, the average "good" player in these tournaments is going to be super out of line anyway, never mind the bad one

Last edited by Hectorjelly; 27-01-19 at 16:25.
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Old 27-01-19, 16:48   #13
Murdrum
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Originally Posted by Hectorjelly View Post
Actually just thinking about it again, the average "good" player in these tournaments is going to be super out of line anyway, never mind the bad one
Absolutely, I mean imo nothing demonstrates that more than the 1% of time villain shows up with nut flush here. In a live tourney such as this I expect that to be at least 5x higher.

Admittedly I haven't used PIOSolver, I have used PokerSnowie but I'd be interested in the ranges applied none the less.
I'd also be curious how much value pros place in PIOSolvers for these type of tourneys or their equivalent online.

Also on a side note given the frequency of events and numbers playing seemingly increasing over the past couple of years it would be nice to see a few more hands posted up on the forum.
I had one from a few weeks ago I might throw up for some thoughts.
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Old 27-01-19, 18:35   #14
Hectorjelly
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Yeah definitely do!
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Old 28-01-19, 12:03   #15
BallymoreChris
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In these spots trust your instinct - when you think has it just fold.

his most likely hand is 22 imo, makes no sense playing a fd kx or bluff the way he did.

only mistake is showing the hand - you give way too much information to the rest of the table when you show folds like that.

interested to know what % of this time people think this guy was bluffing or had a fd?
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Old 28-01-19, 12:49   #16
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Personally I wouldn’t jam deuces in this spot, because if your opponent has a king he’s likely to see the hand through and if he gets there, he gets there. I’d probably just make it 90k or so.

With the timing of the hand, I’d say c-bet, flat, shove with fd. Snap call for me. There is only one king left and you can always suck out if behind.
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Old 28-01-19, 14:48   #17
Arazi
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Originally Posted by *PocketRockets* View Post
Personally I wouldnít jam deuces in this spot, because if your opponent has a king heís likely to see the hand through and if he gets there, he gets there. Iíd probably just make it 90k or so.

With the timing of the hand, Iíd say c-bet, flat, shove with fd. Snap call for me. There is only one king left and you can always suck out if behind.
Remember that from the villains point of view here two opponents have shown strength on a KK2 board, if he has 22 then itís likely IMO that a K is in one of their hands.
If he has a FD then itís also likely that a K is in one of their hands.
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Old 28-01-19, 17:50   #18
*PocketRockets*
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I’m just saying if I have deuces I also don’t want to price my opponent out of chasing the flush.
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Old 28-01-19, 20:08   #19
Nic
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very reasonable fold. If you run his x/r range through equilab, you're not doing v. well. Even if it includes big pocket pairs (it really shouldn't though). Most of the time you're drawing almost dead vs bigger king or 22, and the rest you are up against flush draw.
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Old 28-01-19, 20:45   #20
Hectorjelly
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Against a worse case scenario where he is never bluffing and always has 22 or KT+ we have 21.5% equity

Add in just the nut flush draw and we have 40%

http://www.propokertools.com/simulat...C+ak&s=generic

http://www.propokertools.com/simulat...%2As&s=generic

This is a live tournament in ireland so I think the above ranges are way off, but even against the second one we are doing better than breaking even. If you add in JJ+ we are 60%
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