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    Can we ever find a fold here?

    A lot of ye proberly know about this hand allready, ME in tramore, where at the 800/1500 level with 50 plus remaining.
    I am dominating the table playing super agressive which proberley puts my range pretty wide.
    Villan in seat 1 has been solid all day, has shown the goods all day. I am in seat 8 with about 140k (table chipleader).
    I limp utg with KK, villan makes it 4500, bt calls who is no good and I take no notice of him, I make it 15000 and villian ships for 67000.
    I know we should proberley never be folding here, but I think his range is very tight, and I can not see him doing this on a bluff or withh QQ or AK, so imo it has to be the most obvious AA, can't see him putting his tourny at risk with out anything else but A's possibly same hand but it's unlikely, so Is anyone folding here? Opinions please?

    #2
    Im not good enough to fold KK - that's not saying other players couldn't fold here

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
      Im not good enough to fold KK - that's not saying other players couldn't fold here
      I agree with this Keith, its just so hard to release the hand

      Comment


        #4
        don't limp pre and I call very fast
        "We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."

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          #5
          don't limp pre and I call very very fast
          Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

          Comment


            #6
            limp reraising is a really really bad idea here, especially if you have been playing wide and opening often. You've built a laggy image, and then failed to take advantage of it when you have a premium hand.

            Never folding now though

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              #7
              if your image is pretty wide then i raise from utg as played now i call because he knows your range is very wide here soul read now unforthyately

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by emmet02 View Post
                limp reraising is a really really bad idea here, especially if you have been playing wide and opening often. You've built a laggy image, and then failed to take advantage of it when you have a premium hand.

                Never folding now though
                I think the limp is fine and with the image I am after building, this is the spot that I am looking for to getting paid but the circumstances have changed with this villan. I think the way I played it up to my decission is fine

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by TheImprover View Post
                  I think the limp is fine and with the image I am after building, this is the spot that I am looking for to getting paid but the circumstances have changed with this villan. I think the way I played it up to my decission is fine
                  +1 limping strong hands is coming back into fashion (well if you limp with the intention of raising obv) especially at an aggro table its a pretty good move imo

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by TheImprover View Post
                    I think the limp is fine and with the image I am after building, this is the spot that I am looking for to getting paid but the circumstances have changed with this villan. I think the way I played it up to my decission is fine
                    Limp raise much from EP with junk prior to this?
                    Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Wombatman View Post
                      Limp raise much from EP with junk prior to this?
                      To be honest no, but I have not been really limping at all,

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by TheImprover View Post
                        To be honest no, but I have not been really limping at all,
                        then why start with KK?

                        Here's my thoughts on it.

                        You have been opening wide, and getting away with it, that means players are more likely to be aiming to take a stand against you when they can. The will open their 3betting range up.

                        By opening your premium hand here, you allow them to 3bet for value against a hand that crushes their 3betting range. This is ideal!

                        By limping, you allow them to recognise that there is something different about this hand, either that you have a monster, or a mediocre hand, perhaps some small SC or PP, and are looking to see a flop cheaply. They will now widen their opening range up against you.

                        You reraise, now they get to fold all the hands that they widened their opening range to include, and you pick up 4bbs or something like that. They continue pretty much with hands that they will 3bet if you had've opened, and they stack off with the same hands.

                        By limping, you allow them to save chips by allowing them make a normal open instead of a 3bet if they want to play the hand with you.

                        You also are in a strange spot if you get to the flop with 3 or 4 players.

                        I just can't really advocate a limp re-raise UTG unless there's some crazy dynamic at the table.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by TheImprover View Post
                          I think the limp is fine and with the image I am after building, this is the spot that I am looking for to getting paid but the circumstances have changed with this villan. I think the way I played it up to my decission is fine
                          If you are 100% certain the villian cannot do this with QQ or AK then you can fold. We do not know the villian and cannot tell you this was the wrong move.
                          "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Excellent explanation, Emmett.
                            "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                            Comment


                              #15
                              People are still limp re-raising big pairs from ep, wow.
                              Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                              I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                              None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Yup spot on emmett. Limping KK here is so horrifically bad. Snap call now. To say he only shows up with AA here is completely ridiculous imo.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by emmet02 View Post
                                  then why start with KK?

                                  Here's my thoughts on it.

                                  You have been opening wide, and getting away with it, that means players are more likely to be aiming to take a stand against you when they can. The will open their 3betting range up.

                                  By opening your premium hand here, you allow them to 3bet for value against a hand that crushes their 3betting range. This is ideal!

                                  By limping, you allow them to recognise that there is something different about this hand, either that you have a monster, or a mediocre hand, perhaps some small SC or PP, and are looking to see a flop cheaply. They will now widen their opening range up against you.

                                  You reraise, now they get to fold all the hands that they widened their opening range to include, and you pick up 4bbs or something like that. They continue pretty much with hands that they will 3bet if you had've opened, and they stack off with the same hands.

                                  By limping, you allow them to save chips by allowing them make a normal open instead of a 3bet if they want to play the hand with you.

                                  You also are in a strange spot if you get to the flop with 3 or 4 players.

                                  I just can't really advocate a limp re-raise UTG unless there's some crazy dynamic at the table.
                                  Ok some good points but, when i 3bet the villan here surley he has to put me on a big hand and is not going to 4bet with air or QQ, AK ect, so does it not have to be AA, after all he is after shipping the lot.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Starvin Marvin View Post
                                    People are still limp re-raising big pairs from ep, wow.
                                    I think players are starting to redirect back to this as it is unexpected now so it can be profitable.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by TheImprover View Post
                                      Ok some good points but, when i 3bet the villan here surley he has to put me on a big hand and is not going to 4bet with air or QQ, AK ect, so does it not have to be AA, after all he is after shipping the lot.
                                      Do you now see why the limp reraise is a very poor move?

                                      You lose tonnes of value here because of this exact statement. The villain can narrow your range hugely because you've limp reraised.

                                      If you had've opened, and been 3bet, and 4bet shoved and were snapped by AA it wouldn't have felt any better, but that would've been a hand that played itself.

                                      I wouldn't fold here unless he showed me AA before I had to make the decision.

                                      Originally posted by TheImprover View Post
                                      I think players are starting to redirect back to this as it is unexpected now so it can be profitable.
                                      What?

                                      It can only be profitable if you have a limp reraising bluffing range, which you pretty much should just never ever ever have.

                                      Even if it is "profitable", that is simply because you have a premium hand, not that the act itself is profitable. You can maximise profit by simply opening as normal.
                                      Last edited by Emmet; 26-07-10, 15:07.

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                                        #20
                                        OP, as everyone has said you have built a LAGgy image for yourself, and then once you need it and can exploit it by picking up a monster, you limp and basically turn your hand face up.

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                                          #21
                                          Ok so as played, no one here is ever folding, why not, is it that we are not good enough to fold or is it that we think we are ahead? i did make the call and he did have AA but while i was making the decision i kept telling myself that he has AA and i took a very long time to make the call, i was nearly certain that this is what he had but i just couldnt find the fold.

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                                            #22
                                            The hurt that we feel when we call and he flips over AA is far far far less than the anger and hurt we feel when we fold and he turns over JJ, QQ, AKo, KK.

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                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by emmet02 View Post
                                              The hurt that we feel when we call and he flips over AA is far far far less than the anger and hurt we feel when we fold and he turns over JJ, QQ, AKo, KK.
                                              [ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-OgL9T5oSQ[/ame]
                                              Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Read Emmets posts again and stop focusing on the fact you got coolered which means nothing.

                                                If you take one thing from this hand it should be why limping KK here is bad.
                                                Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                                                I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                                                None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by TheImprover View Post
                                                  Ok so as played, no one here is ever folding, why not, is it that we are not good enough to fold or is it that we think we are ahead? i did make the call and he did have AA but while i was making the decision i kept telling myself that he has AA and i took a very long time to make the call, i was nearly certain that this is what he had but i just couldnt find the fold.
                                                  Keith

                                                  Emmetts posts are spot on as I read them. I was bruised from your constant raising as well and you are perfectly right to categorsie the villain as solid but I definitely think that, given your image, he is quite happy to 4-bet all-in with QQ,KK or AK (I certainly would be if I could have got better than 58o.

                                                  You got coolered-ul that's poker

                                                  Good playing with you -get a gear change out of fast forward at all times and you would have cruised to final table regardless of this hand imo.

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                                                    #26
                                                    to say its bad to limp AK/KK/AA UTG 100% of the time is just plain wrong - there are plenty of times when it is the most +EV move to make. I have employed it 3/4 times over the last couple of months all of which have been extremely profitable.

                                                    you just need to know the table conditions where it is profitable

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                                                      #27
                                                      To say pretty much anything is bad 100% of the time is wrong.

                                                      If donks are being shove happy and jamming all over the shop over limps then yes it could be an ok move but doing it for the reasons The Improver has said is not good. This will be rare though and with deep stacks its rarely going to be the most +ev way to play the hand.

                                                      You are just sticking up your hand and shouting i have QQ+ or AK.
                                                      Unless you have a cunning bluff limp re raising range and are triple reverse levelling people.
                                                      Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                                                      I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                                                      None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        ok this post is going to sound confusing but this is a spot where I have used this to my advantage over the last 3/4 months. The table needs to be set up so we have at least 2 limp happy donks to our left and a player we view as good to their left (its important they view us as good too)

                                                        so we limp our premium, donks oblige and limp too. good player see's all the dead money and goes raise FTW. comes back around to us and we raise/ship. donks fold/call and more often then not the player who views us as decent will level himself into calling because "limp raising is so 5 years ago or ah he knows im stealing and is trying to re-steal)

                                                        For the same reasons I will sometimes limp AK behind limpers and ship when it comes back around to me.

                                                        small samples but its working out ok for me

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          I don't understand why this thread has so many posts.
                                                          Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post
                                                            I don't understand why this thread has so many posts.
                                                            im trying to argue the merits of limping premiums UTG FWIW

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by The Istanbul View Post
                                                              Keith

                                                              Emmetts posts are spot on as I read them. I was bruised from your constant raising as well and you are perfectly right to categorsie the villain as solid but I definitely think that, given your image, he is quite happy to 4-bet all-in with QQ,KK or AK (I certainly would be if I could have got better than 58o.

                                                              You got coolered-ul that's poker

                                                              Good playing with you -get a gear change out of fast forward at all times and you would have cruised to final table regardless of this hand imo.
                                                              What seat were you sitting in? If you noticed which i am sure you did, i was changing gears all day from been quite to involved in everything, i think i mixed up my play very well, and maybe could have cruised to the final table regardless of this hand but the blind on blind situation didnt help either. Really enjoyed the table i was on and had some great crack with the players on the table.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by The Istanbul View Post
                                                                Keith

                                                                Emmetts posts are spot on as I read them. I was bruised from your constant raising as well and you are perfectly right to categorsie the villain as solid but I definitely think that, given your image, he is quite happy to 4-bet all-in with QQ,KK or AK (I certainly would be if I could have got better than 58o.

                                                                You got coolered-ul that's poker

                                                                Good playing with you -get a gear change out of fast forward at all times and you would have cruised to final table regardless of this hand imo.
                                                                I dont think the villan had this play in him to 4 bet all in with QQ,AK

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by TheImprover View Post
                                                                  I dont think the villan had this play in him to 4 bet all in with QQ,AK
                                                                  This answers your own question then doesnt it

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                                                                    im trying to argue the merits of limping premiums UTG FWIW
                                                                    Do you limp a lot in e/mp?
                                                                    Pining for Wa'erford

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by sligboi View Post
                                                                      Do you limp a lot in e/mp?
                                                                      not "a lot" but If I have a good reason to do it then I will

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by Howard_Finkel View Post
                                                                        This answers your own question then doesnt it
                                                                        I know, but like most of ye, the fold option just doesn't seem to happen, but I think if this situation with a similar villan and similar play happens again which I'm sure it will, I think I could find the fold

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by TheImprover View Post
                                                                          What seat were you sitting in? If you noticed which i am sure you did, i was changing gears all day from been quite to involved in everything, i think i mixed up my play very well, and maybe could have cruised to the final table regardless of this hand but the blind on blind situation didnt help either. Really enjoyed the table i was on and had some great crack with the players on the table.
                                                                          Seat 9

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            The words hurt my eyes

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by mickste View Post
                                                                              The words hurt my eyes
                                                                              Don't read them so,

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by The Istanbul View Post
                                                                                Seat 9
                                                                                Good playing with you, I enjoyed the crack

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by TheImprover View Post
                                                                                  I am dominating the table playing super agressive which proberley puts my range pretty wide.
                                                                                  With your image the limp is awful

                                                                                  Originally posted by TheImprover View Post
                                                                                  I limp utg with KK, villan makes it 4500, bt calls who is no good and I take no notice of him, I make it 15000 and villian ships for 67000.
                                                                                  Now you are repping AA, which is also awful

                                                                                  Originally posted by TheImprover View Post
                                                                                  I know we should proberley never be folding here, but I think his range is very tight, and I can not see him doing this on a bluff or withh QQ or AK, so imo it has to be the most obvious AA, can't see him putting his tourny at risk with out anything else but A's possibly same hand but it's unlikely, so Is anyone folding here? Opinions please?
                                                                                  The funny thing is by the way you played the hand you gave yourself the only oportunity you were ever going to get to fold this preflop

                                                                                  The action should have been:
                                                                                  you raise
                                                                                  he reraises
                                                                                  you ship
                                                                                  he calls
                                                                                  cooler

                                                                                  or, if you decided to continue your tricky play
                                                                                  you limp
                                                                                  he raises
                                                                                  you call
                                                                                  and get the money on the flop

                                                                                  so to answer your question, can you fold now? the answer is yes! - you are repping Aces with the limp reraise utg, and the tightest player at the table ships over you? I think I'd find a fold here, unless i could convince myself that he thinks i'm full of shite?

                                                                                  I know you're a very good player and i don't mean to sound prickish, but i really think you butchered the hand from start to finish, i reckon you agree with me?

                                                                                  btw i didn't bother reading any of the replies so appologies if this has been said already

                                                                                  gl and cya in cork next month probably

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    After reading all youre opinions on this and putting a bit more tought into the hand i would have to admit that i played it arseways, as most of you said, should have raised pre and 4bet all in or a big chunk of it anyways, and just put it down to a cooler and move on, thats poker,
                                                                                    Thanks for all the opinions.

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      theimprover this kind of thread comes up from time to time

                                                                                      in fact I think we should put up a sticky for folding KK pre threads

                                                                                      basically the distilled knowledge is you should never fold KK pre as even though you 'knew he had it' as more often than not he does not have it

                                                                                      while there may be very specific circumstances where you might consider folding KK pre I think you would need a very strong read on the player in question

                                                                                      and in your situation;

                                                                                      Originally posted by TheImprover View Post
                                                                                      I am dominating the table playing super agressive which proberley puts my range pretty wide.
                                                                                      you cannot fold because of this, as even a complete fucking nit will eventually get pissed off with your antics and is well capable of shipping AK QQ JJ AQ 77 etc here

                                                                                      which means he turns up with AK QQ JJ AQ 77 a lot more than AA here

                                                                                      which means you call

                                                                                      ul!

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