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    Interesting Turn Spot

    Howdy folks.

    This hand has been replaying in my head, interested to hear some opinions.

    Tourney was a €200 deepstack live event, table was relatively passive apart from young villain who was playing lag and was regularly raising from mid to late position.

    Blinds 50/100

    Villain raises in CO 300 (stack 20,000)
    Folds to Hero in BB with A7cc (stack 16,000)
    Hero raises to 900, Villain tanks for a bit then flat calls.
    Flop is 4s 9h Qc.
    Hero bets 1200, CO raises to 2600, hero calls raise.
    Turn is a 3c.

    Thoughts on next move from here?

    #2
    I just flat pre.

    It's ok to fold flop to the raise. You're going to be guessing on a lot of turns and will probably end up check/folding to more pressure. As played, start with a check and either call/fold depending on sizing. Not crazy on playing potentially 320bb pots OOP with a draw this early in a deepstack tournament.

    Villain doesn't rep a lot though. KJ/J10 seem likely, but would want more solid reads.

    Comment


      #3
      Thanks for this man, appreciate the input.

      Yeah, I wasn't really buying his flop raise, and this is where my difficulty lay.
      He was a good, young poker dude who i got the impression played a lot online, and had looked to have made a coupe disciplined folds in the past hour that we had playing together.
      Generally in early deep stack tournaments I like to pressure opponents in order to build a stack which can look very spewy when it doesn't work, but is a strategy I've had a bit of success with.

      My thought process on calling the flop raise was that if I completely whiffed the turn it would be an easy check-fold, but that if a club came on turn would I:

      Bet into him if I'm still putting him on a draw, q10 or qj
      Check - SHOVE (lol or not?) if he bet around 3/4 of pot (is he ever folding a queen here?)

      I don't like the check call here because it's very difficult to make hero call on river even if draws etc miss, and just think it would be the weakest play.

      Taking the route of calling preflop and floating the flop, if the 3c arrives on the turn, what is your view from here?

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Finn89 View Post
        Thanks for this man, appreciate the input.

        Yeah, I wasn't really buying his flop raise, and this is where my difficulty lay.
        He was a good, young poker dude who i got the impression played a lot online, and had looked to have made a coupe disciplined folds in the past hour that we had playing together.
        Generally in early deep stack tournaments I like to pressure opponents in order to build a stack which can look very spewy when it doesn't work, but is a strategy I've had a bit of success with.

        My thought process on calling the flop raise was that if I completely whiffed the turn it would be an easy check-fold, but that if a club came on turn would I:

        Bet into him if I'm still putting him on a draw, q10 or qj
        Check - SHOVE (lol or not?) if he bet around 3/4 of pot (is he ever folding a queen here?)

        I don't like the check call here because it's very difficult to make hero call on river even if draws etc miss, and just think it would be the weakest play.

        Taking the route of calling preflop and floating the flop, if the 3c arrives on the turn, what is your view from here?
        I have been out of the game for a good while but I can't see any sense in this thought at all. Your putting another 14bb's in so that you can check/fold to most of the deck. Does that mean you are going broke on a turn Ace?

        Comment


          #5
          Calling the flop is going to be -ev if you are only continuing on a club. There aren't enough clubs in the deck to make it profitable. I agree with your assessment on his likely range, he is pretty much representing nothing. You have a few options on the turn, here are the two I think are best

          1) Check call - this allows him to continue bluffing and ensures you get to realise your equity, if you do this then you really need to lead the river almost no matter what it is, as you really don't want to lose to a pair of two or threes that were turned into a bluff.

          2) Lead - This has the advantage of winning the pot now, we might get villain off a small piece of the board, and also cut down on the risk of KT or similar drawing out on us. You need to make a decision as to what to do on the river should he call, i'd take into account his reaction to your bet (which is really important as taking the betting lead is very unusual and players will tend to give you a pretty honest first reaction) and the river. KQ and better is calling on two streets here though, so factor that into your decision.

          Option 2 really requires a good image as we are taking an unusual line and may induce a light call/raise, based on what you have said I'd go with option 1.

          Comment


            #6
            Totally agree with Tony and agree with Darragh if you still want to play the hand aggressively on the turn and try to win the pot, but honestly, playing a decent lag player oop at this stage is just stupid and will get you into trouble more times then will be successful. Against a weak or poor player, no problem. But once he raises the flop you should be finish with the hand and wp to him.

            Comment


              #7
              villain is repping fuck all by raising flop .

              your thought process for calling the flop should be the above,not "im gonna check fold turn if i dont improve " .

              villain would call your flop bet with his AQ,KQ,QJ or any other Q .
              sometimes he has AA here but less so than often as you block an A and some times he has KK.

              will all his sets he would just call your flop bet more than likely.

              with his better aces he would also call.so by raising he is bluffing alot of the time and ur A high is actually the best hand,which means its gonna be the best hand on alot of turns too.

              i would call his flop raise with the intention of either check /raising turn or if turn goes check/check then potting the river regardless of what comes out on turn and river.

              Comment


                #8
                This hand is butchered from start to finish. I really don't even know where to start.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Gholimoli View Post
                  villain is repping fuck all by raising flop .

                  your thought process for calling the flop should be the above,not "im gonna check fold turn if i dont improve " .

                  villain would call your flop bet with his AQ,KQ,QJ or any other Q .
                  sometimes he has AA here but less so than often as you block an A and some times he has KK.

                  will all his sets he would just call your flop bet more than likely.

                  with his better aces he would also call.so by raising he is bluffing alot of the time and ur A high is actually the best hand,which means its gonna be the best hand on alot of turns too.

                  i would call his flop raise with the intention of either check /raising turn or if turn goes check/check then potting the river regardless of what comes out on turn and river.
                  Would disagree with heaps of this also, if the guy is a good competent LAG I see no reason why he wouldn't play sets this way.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
                    Would disagree with heaps of this also, if the guy is a good competent LAG I see no reason why he wouldn't play sets this way.
                    hero's 3betting range here is :
                    AA 6 combos
                    KK 6 combos
                    QQ 3 combos
                    JJ 6 combos
                    TT 6 combos
                    99 3 combos
                    AK 16 combos
                    AQ 12 combos
                    KQs 3 combos
                    QJs 3combos
                    some suited Axs that blocks an A and some suited Kxs that blocks a K
                    Axs we give him 12 combos of this
                    Kxs we give him 8 combos of this
                    some suited connectors like :
                    78s 2 combos we give him half these combos and assume he flats with them the other.
                    89s 2 combos
                    9Ts 2 combos
                    JTs 2 combos

                    so his entire range (give or take a few combos) is : 92 combos

                    of those his total value combos are:
                    AA +KK +QQ +AQ +KQ +QJ +99 = 36

                    so when hero leads the flop , then 60% of his range has missed and when we raise with our sets we get rid of 60% of his range which i would assume any competent player to know is really bad.

                    versus the other 40% of his value range is also much better to slow play as there are many safe cards on the turn that is gonna make hero bet anyway.

                    so i would argue that any competent player should just flat sets on this board in thus spot.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
                      This hand is butchered from start to finish. I really don't even know where to start.
                      hand is not butchered any where really.

                      pre-flop is pretty standard 3bet versus an active open from CO.

                      flop lead is pretty standard too and i would actually hate any other play than a lead.

                      flop call of 3 bet is pretty standard too and again i wouldn't like any other play.

                      what exactly is butchered and why?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Gholimoli View Post
                        hand is not butchered any where really.

                        pre-flop is pretty standard 3bet versus an active open from CO.

                        flop lead is pretty standard too and i would actually hate any other play than a lead.

                        flop call of 3 bet is pretty standard too and again i wouldn't like any other play.

                        what exactly is butchered and why?
                        Prefer flatting this hand in BB. Is hero 3-Betting for Value out of position OR to Induce a fold from worse ? Villain sounds like he's never folding so why put ourselves in this spot OOP ? (this deep)

                        Makes more sense to call and realise our equity in my opinion. The rest of the hand is simply compounding our mistake/s.

                        FWIW - I think the 3-betting range you are giving Villain out of the BB is off the charts.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Gholimoli View Post
                          hero's 3betting range here is :
                          AA 6 combos
                          KK 6 combos
                          QQ 3 combos
                          JJ 6 combos
                          TT 6 combos
                          99 3 combos
                          AK 16 combos
                          AQ 12 combos
                          KQs 3 combos
                          QJs 3combos
                          some suited Axs that blocks an A and some suited Kxs that blocks a K
                          Axs we give him 12 combos of this
                          Kxs we give him 8 combos of this
                          some suited connectors like :
                          78s 2 combos we give him half these combos and assume he flats with them the other.
                          89s 2 combos
                          9Ts 2 combos
                          JTs 2 combos

                          so his entire range (give or take a few combos) is : 92 combos

                          of those his total value combos are:
                          AA +KK +QQ +AQ +KQ +QJ +99 = 36

                          so when hero leads the flop , then 60% of his range has missed and when we raise with our sets we get rid of 60% of his range which i would assume any competent player to know is really bad.

                          versus the other 40% of his value range is also much better to slow play as there are many safe cards on the turn that is gonna make hero bet anyway.

                          so i would argue that any competent player should just flat sets on this board in thus spot.
                          You do realise that at this point of the tournament the chances are the villain as literally zero clue what our 3-betting range is. How in gods name is he going to know we 3-bet QJs but no QJ off at 50/100 in a live €200?

                          You're making so many ridiculous assumptions in this post it's frankly hilarious.

                          Villain has literally no idea we aren't nutted. It's fucking 50/100 of a live 200 deep stack not some SHR where we have played heaps of hands together and a bunch of history,

                          A lag should live up to reputation. So many good players would see the value in a raise here, just because you don't or play a different style doesn't make it wrong.
                          Last edited by peterswellman; 02-11-16, 23:32.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Gholimoli View Post
                            hand is not butchered any where really.

                            pre-flop is pretty standard 3bet versus an active open from CO.

                            flop lead is pretty standard too and i would actually hate any other play than a lead.

                            flop call of 3 bet is pretty standard too and again i wouldn't like any other play.

                            what exactly is butchered and why?
                            It is butchered, it's literally so much button clicking I don't even know.

                            I would argue it's a standard flat this deep preflop. Why is it a standard 3-bet deep we're inflating a pot OOP with a hand that flops pretty well against a wide range. By 3-betting not only are we widening this range to mostly better hands, we are giving up the opportunity occasionally to see a flop with a hand that should be good to see flops with. We are three betting standardly because?

                            Our flop lead is fine if we three-bet. I think the flop flat to raise is pretty bad and makes it very difficult for us to win this pot. What's our plan? Are you just going to just check/call all the way down. Are we praying a club comes on the turn so we can realise some equity or what exactly is our play?

                            After we get raised i'd actually much rather us pull the trigger again and 3-bet the flop. Something like 5500(maybe slightly bigger) should almost put the decision on the villain for the rest of our chips. If we get called I'm probably shutting down.

                            A7 is such a bad hand here to just take a street. If we had AKcc I would be fine with a peel but this garbage we need a club and only a club to realise some equity. We are against a lag, out of position, in an inflated pot for no apparent reason. All I can see other than we were clicking buttons pre and we again doing the same now.

                            Now we turn some equity and we have absolutely no idea what to do because we made some poor decisions on earlier streets, ergo we have butchered our hand.

                            Out and out button clicking going on here. Yeah, let's take on the only LAG player at the table out of position in an inflated pot on a passive table because errrrrr standard three-bet spot pre supposedly. Riiiiiiight.
                            Last edited by peterswellman; 02-11-16, 23:34.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by PokerPiper View Post
                              Prefer flatting this hand in BB. Is hero 3-Betting for Value out of position OR to Induce a fold from worse ? Villain sounds like he's never folding so why put ourselves in this spot OOP ? (this deep)

                              Makes more sense to call and realise our equity in my opinion. The rest of the hand is simply compounding our mistake/s.

                              FWIW - I think the 3-betting range you are giving Villain out of the BB is off the charts.
                              The 3-betting range is absurd, it's fucking 50/100 in a live €200 and our range from him 3-betting goes down to 109s? Is this real life?

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
                                Would disagree with heaps of this also, if the guy is a good competent LAG I see no reason why he wouldn't play sets this way.
                                you said a good competent LAG will raise sets here.

                                Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
                                You do realise that at this point of the tournament the chances are the villain as literally zero clue what our 3-betting range is. How in gods name is he going to know we 3-bet QJs but no QJ off at 50/100 in a live €200?

                                You're making so many ridiculous assumptions in this post it's frankly hilarious.

                                Villain has literally no idea we aren't nutted. It's fucking 50/100 of a live 200 deep stack not some SHR where we have played heaps of hands together and a bunch of history,

                                A lag should live up to reputation. So many good players would see the value in a raise here, just because you don't or play a different style doesn't make it wrong.
                                so which is it?
                                is villain a competent LAG or does he not have clue?

                                you said you expect a good competent LAG to raise sets there,then when i give reasons why a good player should not raise there ,you say villain don't have a clue?

                                Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
                                The 3-betting range is absurd, it's fucking 50/100 in a live €200 and our range from him 3-betting goes down to 109s? Is this real life?
                                why is this 3betting range absurd ?
                                why is it bad to 3bet T9s half the time there, versus a serial opener ?

                                what is a not so "absurd" 3betting range for hero here?

                                you are not backing up anything you say, or suggest, by anything other than words like "absured" , "butchered" ," clicking buttons " with out saying why or give any logical reason for it !!!



                                you say so many good players will see the value of raising there...well why dont you go ahead and tel me about the value ?

                                i don't see the value cuz there is inst much at all !!!

                                versus his sets and strong hands the hand will play the same way (more or less ) any how but versus his bluffs it dont...raising just makes him fold all that part!

                                so where the fuck is the value in that?

                                no offence man,but it really don't look like you know much about what ur talking about but like Donald Trump,i think you have words...you have the best words .

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Gholimoli View Post
                                  you said a good competent LAG will raise sets here.
                                  By playing sets as a raise I meant.

                                  so which is it?
                                  is villain a competent LAG or does he not have clue?
                                  Being competent has nothing to do with recognising our supposedly mental three-betting range entirely at 50/100.

                                  you said you expect a good competent LAG to raise sets there,then when i give reasons why a good player should not raise there ,you say villain don't have a clue?
                                  Err, what? I said villian hasn't a clue of our 3-betting range because it's at most second level. How many opportunities would we have to three bet the big blind from a C/O open at this point in a tournament.

                                  why is this 3betting range absurd ?
                                  why is it bad to 3bet T9s half the time there, versus a serial opener ?
                                  This example shows how out of touch you are with modern poker. People have recognised that flatting such hands these days is much more profitable. Have you watched any training videos or watch any decent players play in like the last two years?

                                  what is a not so "absurd" 3betting range for hero here?

                                  you are not backing up anything you say, or suggest, by anything other than words like "absured" , "butchered" ," clicking buttons " with out saying why or give any logical reason for it !!!
                                  I didn't see the 3-bet is absurd. i said the ridiculous range you have constructed is absurd. Massive difference, you seem to be struggling with reading.

                                  you say so many good players will see the value of raising there...well why dont you go ahead and tel me about the value ?
                                  Raising a set against a percieved strong range on a dry board. There is no value in that at all whatsoever. Christ.

                                  i don't see the value cuz there is inst much at all !!!
                                  Out of touch by this line of thinking clearly.

                                  versus his sets and strong hands the hand will play the same way (more or less ) any how but versus his bluffs it dont...raising just makes him fold all that part!

                                  so where the fuck is the value in that?
                                  LOL

                                  no offence man,but it really don't look like you know much about what ur talking about but like Donald Trump,i think you have words...you have the best words .
                                  Such irony. I think it's about time you played some tournaments because you seem way out of touch with recent poker trends. Keep inflating pots needlessly out of position and constructing ranges that clearly are pulling hands out of thin air.

                                  As for the Donald Trump analogy, at least your topical and up to date with something because it clearly isn't tournament poker.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    This is fun

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Why don't you both play HU for Rolls?

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        i ask specific questions and every time you just talk rubbish ...

                                        you say the range im giving hero for 3betting is absurd ,yet you have not said why nor have given an alternative range !!!

                                        i ask why its bad to have half of T9s in ur 3beting range and gain you say nothing !

                                        you say being competent has nothing to do with recognizing a 3betting range !!!
                                        really?
                                        wtf does being competent mean then?

                                        you also seem to think that when a line is standard is the same thing as saying a line is mandatory ...it aint !

                                        its standard to 3bet A7s there and its also standard to call with it depending on other factors ...one factor being how likely it is to be 4betted ?

                                        the more likely you are to get 4 betted , then the less you should lean toward 3betitng with A7s ,and the less likely you are to get 4bet on, then the more you should lean towards 3betiing .

                                        the wider his opening range then obv the less likely he is to 4bet ...and a serial raiser on CO has a very wide opening range .

                                        i haven't watched much training videos in the past couple of years no but i bet i understand them a hell of a lot better than you,as its clear your fundamentals are just fucking awful !!!

                                        i think alot of this is over your head to be honest and for that reason im out .


                                        edit to say:
                                        you also say you prefer 4betting the flop instead of calling, once our lead gets raised ...you say this while saying that you expect his raising range to include all the sets ,and this is the most retarted thing you have said yet !

                                        so you advocating raising in a spot where you never get a better hand to fold and never get a worse hand to call and only get called by a better hand ?

                                        fucking genius !!!

                                        he is never raising the flop with A9+ ,never raising the flop with 22,33,55,66,77,88,TT,JJ ,AK,AJ ...so his flop raising range is either sets(according to you btw) or nothing which makes his range bluff heavy ...bluffs that you are ahead of anyway !
                                        Last edited by Gholimoli; 03-11-16, 12:26.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Where can I get the info to keep up to date on these recent poker trends?

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Gholimoli View Post
                                            i ask specific questions and every time you just talk rubbish ...

                                            you say the range im giving hero for 3betting is absurd ,yet you have not said why nor have given an alternative range !!!

                                            i ask why its bad to have half of T9s in ur 3beting range and gain you say nothing !

                                            you say being competent has nothing to do with recognizing a 3betting range !!!
                                            really?
                                            wtf does being competent mean then?

                                            you also seem to think that when a line is standard is the same thing as saying a line is mandatory ...it aint !

                                            its standard to 3bet A7s there and its also standard to call with it depending on other factors ...one factor being how likely it is to be 4betted ?

                                            the more likely you are to get 4 betted , then the less you should lean toward 3betitng with A7s ,and the less likely you are to get 4bet on, then the more you should lean towards 3betiing .

                                            the wider his opening range then obv the less likely he is to 4bet ...and a serial raiser on CO has a very wide opening range .

                                            i haven't watched much training videos in the past couple of years no but i bet i understand them a hell of a lot better than you,as its clear your fundamentals are just fucking awful !!!

                                            i think alot of this is over your head to be honest and for that reason im out .


                                            edit to say:
                                            you also say you prefer 4betting the flop instead of calling, once our lead gets raised ...you say this while saying that you expect his raising range to include all the sets ,and this is the most retarted thing you have said yet !

                                            so you advocating raising in a spot where you never get a better hand to fold and never get a worse hand to call and only get called by a better hand ?

                                            fucking genius !!!

                                            he is never raising the flop with A9+ ,never raising the flop with 22,33,55,66,77,88,TT,JJ ,AK,AJ ...so his flop raising range is either sets(according to you btw) or nothing which makes his range bluff heavy ...bluffs that you are ahead of anyway !
                                            I talk rubbish. From the guy who spells retarded with a T. It's spelt "RETARDED"- if you're going to try and use an insult on my intelligence at least make sure you can spell basic words.

                                            A random villian does not three-bet that many hands. Some players might but there is no way in hell we can assume some randomer will be 3-betting your range if we are the LAG. At this particular moment in time, we are a randomer to the LAG right? In what world should the LAG put us on this absurd 3-betting range? If he assumes we are good, we are going to flat a wide range and three-bet some bluffs and some value hands.

                                            This is how poker is these days, it's how it's played. The game has evolved from randomly inflating pots pre in late position, people are much more likely to see three and try and take their equity. Defending your BB is universally the done thing these days because people realise with the pot odds your getting to a raise you're going to actually turn a profit more often than not. Especially with a hand like A7 suited.

                                            I never said it was bad. Your reading ability is absolutely shocking. Calm down and try and understand the VERY basic points I'm making here. I said the range you constructed for an randomer in the BB is absurd.Another person has even agreed with me in this thread and i'm sure countless other people would as well. Especially those who play tournament poker regularly these.

                                            I believe that taking a flop here with A7 is much better than 3-betting than inflating a pot out of position against the only aggressive player at the table. Our table is packed with passive players supposed, just like random €200 live games are.

                                            Fine if the table was packed with good players but it won't be, especially at this stage. Keep the pots small against the better players out of position. In what world is that rubbish? It couldn't make any more sense if I tried.

                                            At 50/100 being competent is fine but there isn't a player who alive who could construct absurd range you have constructed without having some prior knowledge. If you're just going to assume that's what randomers 3-bet in a live tournament you really are beyond help.

                                            I disagree the 3-bet is standard. The majority of good players would flat this spot these days because our hand flops so bloody well. I can see the argument for 3-betting but i'm against it. I think it puts us in tough positions like the one we are in now and unless we're very confident in our post-flop game we usually butcher our hand like we have done in this spot. We have got to the turn where we have turned one of the best cards in the deck for us and have literally no idea what the fuck we are going to do. Poker is all about thinking ahead, it's clear from our initial mistake we haven't been thinking ahead. It's clear from our flop call we haven't been thinking ahead. Therefore, we are in process of butchering this hand. Make sense? I don't know how I can make it any more basic for you. Bullet points might be the only thing I can do after this.

                                            Over my head? The sheer irony of that. If you want to run away and hide when you're clearly wrong that's fine with me. It's blatantly obvious you have no idea what's going on in modern tournament poker, which is fine, but don't expect me to sit idle by while you talk absolute horseshite.

                                            How is it retarded (d instead of t)? If he puts us in or calls us it's clear he's not bluffing and we just release our hand. We not 3-betting the flop for value for fuck sake. These basic concepts are quite clearly lost on you. Bluffing is a part of poker and our flop 3-bet is obviously a bluff. I know bluffing in poker.....WTF is going on?

                                            So your plan is to pray he is bluffing and call down with A7 of clubs? My god.
                                            Last edited by peterswellman; 03-11-16, 14:10.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Fold pre, saves all this needless hassle.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
                                                I talk rubbish. From the guy who spells retarded with a T. It's spelt "RETARDED"- if you're going to try and use an insult on my intelligence at least make sure you can spell basic words.

                                                A random villian does not three-bet that many hands. Some players might but there is no way in hell we can assume some randomer will be 3-betting your range if we are the LAG. At this particular moment in time, we are a randomer to the LAG right? In what world should the LAG put us on this absurd 3-betting range? If he assumes we are good, we are going to flat a wide range and three-bet some bluffs and some value hands.

                                                This is how poker is these days, it's how it's played. The game has evolved from randomly inflating pots pre in late position, people are much more likely to see three and try and take their equity. Defending your BB is universally the done thing these days because people realise with the pot odds your getting to a raise you're going to actually turn a profit more often than not. Especially with a hand like A7 suited.

                                                I never said it was bad. Your reading ability is absolutely shocking. Calm down and try and understand the VERY basic points I'm making here. I said the range you constructed for an randomer in the BB is absurd.Another person has even agreed with me in this thread and i'm sure countless other people would as well. Especially those who play tournament poker regularly these.

                                                I believe that taking a flop here with A7 is much better than 3-betting than inflating a pot out of position against the only aggressive player at the table. Our table is packed with passive players supposed, just like random €200 live games are.

                                                Fine if the table was packed with good players but it won't be, especially at this stage. Keep the pots small against the better players out of position. In what world is that rubbish? It couldn't make any more sense if I tried.

                                                At 50/100 being competent is fine but there isn't a player who alive who could construct absurd range you have constructed without having some prior knowledge. If you're just going to assume that's what randomers 3-bet in a live tournament you really are beyond help.

                                                I disagree the 3-bet is standard. The majority of good players would flat this spot these days because our hand flops so bloody well. I can see the argument for 3-betting but i'm against it. I think it puts us in tough positions like the one we are in now and unless we're very confident in our post-flop game we usually butcher our hand like we have done in this spot. We have got to the turn where we have turned one of the best cards in the deck for us and have literally no idea what the fuck we are going to do. Poker is all about thinking ahead, it's clear from our initial mistake we haven't been thinking ahead. It's clear from our flop call we haven't been thinking ahead. Therefore, we are in process of butchering this hand. Make sense? I don't know how I can make it any more basic for you. Bullet points might be the only thing I can do after this.

                                                Over my head? The sheer irony of that. If you want to run away and hide when you're clearly wrong that's fine with me. It's blatantly obvious you have no idea what's going on in modern tournament poker, which is fine, but don't expect me to sit idle by while you talk absolute horseshite.

                                                How is it retarded (d instead of t)? If he puts us in or calls us it's clear he's not bluffing and we just release our hand. We not 3-betting the flop for value for fuck sake. These basic concepts are quite clearly lost on you. Bluffing is a part of poker and our flop 3-bet is obviously a bluff. I know bluffing in poker.....WTF is going on?

                                                So your plan is to pray he is bluffing and call down with A7 of clubs? My god.
                                                i was really tired today and English ain't my first language ,so made some spelling mistakes...get over it lad !

                                                i keep asking you to give me what u think is an accurate 3betting range, from the BB versus, this particular opponent ...and you don't !

                                                why?

                                                lets give BB a tighter 3betting range then ,shall we ?

                                                lets say he 3bets :

                                                AA 6combos
                                                KK 6combos
                                                QQ 3combos
                                                AK 16combos
                                                JJ 6combos

                                                and some 34 45s 62 type of hand at the very bottom of his range for balance ,lets say we give him a total of 8 combos of these to make his range nut heavy ,like you say it is .

                                                so thats a total of 45 combos ,of which 15 are value and rest are not !!!
                                                so 33% of his range in this case is value and nutty and 67% weak !

                                                why the fuck would i raise sets against this range?
                                                why the fuck would i wanna get rid of 2/3 of his range when i have him crushed and should take the best value line?

                                                what is obvious you don't understand ,is how a single hand combo can impact ranges in some spots on some boards !!!

                                                here his total value combos is gonna be AA,KK,QQ no matter what and that is a total of 15 combos .
                                                if you give him even a single combo of another unpaired hand, then you are automatically at a point where most of his range (more than 50% of it) has whiffed here !

                                                how is that range nut heavy?

                                                what is also clear that you don't understand, is how the presence or absence of a particular card ,on flops ,can impact ranges !

                                                here the absence of A and then a K on flop makes his range weak !

                                                the tighter you make his 3betting range,the more true the above is.

                                                so thats ur raising with sets ...

                                                then you say you prefer 4betting flop instead of calling !!!

                                                my lord ...

                                                so we have a range that even if you give it a single unpaired hand combo is 50% weak ,and if you give it my above range ,is 67% weak and you think it is preferable to 4bet than to call his 3bet ???

                                                in a spot where his 3bet range never has A8,A9,AT,AJ,AK ,never has 22-33,55,66,77,88,TT,JJ

                                                you wanna ,as you say, 4bet bluff in this spot?

                                                you think its a good spot to bluff when everything he folds you are already ahead of?

                                                don't just talk rubbish lad ,give me ranges,give me numbers ,give me hands ...

                                                you say you wanna do this as a bluff ?

                                                give me a single hand that you think he folds here when you 4bet that you are not already ahead of ???

                                                i love to know what you think villain's raise folding range is here?

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  well, that was a fun read.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    also since when does A7s "flop so bloody well" ?

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by chips1234 View Post
                                                      also since when does A7s "flop so bloody well" ?
                                                      Suited hands are unbeatable obviously

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Gholimoli View Post
                                                        i was really tired today and English ain't my first language ,so made some spelling mistakes...get over it lad !

                                                        i keep asking you to give me what u think is an accurate 3betting range, from the BB versus, this particular opponent ...and you don't !

                                                        why?

                                                        lets give BB a tighter 3betting range then ,shall we ?

                                                        lets say he 3bets :

                                                        AA 6combos
                                                        KK 6combos
                                                        QQ 3combos
                                                        AK 16combos
                                                        JJ 6combos

                                                        and some 34 45s 62 type of hand at the very bottom of his range for balance ,lets say we give him a total of 8 combos of these to make his range nut heavy ,like you say it is .

                                                        so thats a total of 45 combos ,of which 15 are value and rest are not !!!
                                                        so 33% of his range in this case is value and nutty and 67% weak !

                                                        why the fuck would i raise sets against this range?
                                                        why the fuck would i wanna get rid of 2/3 of his range when i have him crushed and should take the best value line?

                                                        what is obvious you don't understand ,is how a single hand combo can impact ranges in some spots on some boards !!!

                                                        here his total value combos is gonna be AA,KK,QQ no matter what and that is a total of 15 combos .
                                                        if you give him even a single combo of another unpaired hand, then you are automatically at a point where most of his range (more than 50% of it) has whiffed here !

                                                        how is that range nut heavy?

                                                        what is also clear that you don't understand, is how the presence or absence of a particular card ,on flops ,can impact ranges !

                                                        here the absence of A and then a K on flop makes his range weak !

                                                        the tighter you make his 3betting range,the more true the above is.

                                                        so thats ur raising with sets ...

                                                        then you say you prefer 4betting flop instead of calling !!!

                                                        my lord ...

                                                        so we have a range that even if you give it a single unpaired hand combo is 50% weak ,and if you give it my above range ,is 67% weak and you think it is preferable to 4bet than to call his 3bet ???

                                                        in a spot where his 3bet range never has A8,A9,AT,AJ,AK ,never has 22-33,55,66,77,88,TT,JJ

                                                        you wanna ,as you say, 4bet bluff in this spot?

                                                        you think its a good spot to bluff when everything he folds you are already ahead of?

                                                        don't just talk rubbish lad ,give me ranges,give me numbers ,give me hands ...

                                                        you say you wanna do this as a bluff ?

                                                        give me a single hand that you think he folds here when you 4bet that you are not already ahead of ???

                                                        i love to know what you think villain's raise folding range is here?
                                                        Drowning for sorrows after a scandalous United performance. I'll reply to this tommorrow if my head isn't too sore.👍

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          also on hand.

                                                          i flat pre instead of 3b, hand actually doesnt flop as well as swellman thinks but, the reason we flat is we are ahead of villains LP opening range a decent amount of the time. hands i would 3b this deep.

                                                          suited connectors(34s/45s/56s/67s/78s/89s/9Ts) suited broadways /KTs/QTs/JTs/KJs/QJs/KQs, TT+ AJo+ A2s/A3s/A4s/A5s. all off suit hands of the hands in that range are 3bs also to some frequency so we dont end up flatting all our offsuit hands and 3bing all our suited hands. others have different styles and prefer to 3b a polarised range instead of a non-polarised range. i call them nits.(joking not joking)

                                                          we obv dont have to 3b this range everytime its dealt to us in this spot either obv its fine to flat all of those hands aswell, but we should be 3bing them at a decent frequency also.

                                                          post is whatever, we prob dont need to cbet 1.2k into 1.8k either he folds all his thrash he peeled pre that bricks and is calling( or raising in this case) with hands that have flopped some kind of equity(KJ/JT/8T) its possible he is raising his Qx and i wouldnt rule it out given standard of liveaments and i genuinely wouldnt rule out him raising 9x either, cos he feels he needs to protect incase an A or a K come on turn(people do this alot). i highly doubt he is raising sets here also and i doubt he knows what your 3b range would look like anyways. not saying its not good to raise sets here at this stack depth, but if he doesnt know what your 3b range is in this spot, then he wouldnt know what hands he wants to get value from either so would revert to calling unless he thinks you are gonna stick in 150bbs+ with AA/KK. also dont think its very good to 3b his flop raise, we dont rep much at all when we do this and end up super bluff heavy ourselves and it would also fuck SPR on turns if flatted i think(we'd have to make it like 8k to even expect folds and leave ourselves something like 1-2 SPR)
                                                          so yeah that would be atrocious to do that. in all, post i would cbet like 30-35% pot and barrel turns that bring us some equity. prob just gonna fold to his raise now and see if he does it continually.



                                                          sorry if thats^^ all jibberish im pretty terrible at articulating my thoughts(is articulating the correct word here?) prob missed some stuff too.

                                                          EDIT: its possible he has some pure bluffs also that just completely whiff the flop, but he is gonna barrel turns alot and we will end up having to fold alot anyways so another reason why i prefer folding flop to raise.

                                                          EDIT: suited gappers obv in with the suited connectors 3b range also.
                                                          Last edited by chips1234; 04-11-16, 01:00.

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Gholimoli View Post
                                                            hero's 3betting range here is :
                                                            AA 6 combos
                                                            KK 6 combos
                                                            QQ 3 combos
                                                            JJ 6 combos
                                                            TT 6 combos
                                                            99 3 combos
                                                            AK 16 combos
                                                            AQ 12 combos
                                                            KQs 3 combos
                                                            QJs 3combos
                                                            some suited Axs that blocks an A and some suited Kxs that blocks a K
                                                            Axs we give him 12 combos of this
                                                            Kxs we give him 8 combos of this
                                                            some suited connectors like :
                                                            78s 2 combos we give him half these combos and assume he flats with them the other.
                                                            89s 2 combos
                                                            9Ts 2 combos
                                                            JTs 2 combos

                                                            so his entire range (give or take a few combos) is : 92 combos

                                                            of those his total value combos are:
                                                            AA +KK +QQ +AQ +KQ +QJ +99 = 36

                                                            so when hero leads the flop , then 60% of his range has missed and when we raise with our sets we get rid of 60% of his range which i would assume any competent player to know is really bad.
                                                            A bit late to the party. And a lot concurrent points made, so just picking out one or two.

                                                            People will disagree on ranges all day long. So not going to go down that route as its completely subjective.
                                                            The bolded part above highlights the pretty big mistake in your thinking. There's no way you can say that. It's simply incorrect, and we know that for certain.

                                                            Originally posted by Gholimoli View Post
                                                            AA 6combos
                                                            KK 6combos
                                                            QQ 3combos
                                                            AK 16combos
                                                            JJ 6combos

                                                            and some 34 45s 62 type of hand at the very bottom of his range for balance ,lets say we give him a total of 8 combos of these to make his range nut heavy ,like you say it is .

                                                            so thats a total of 45 combos ,of which 15 are value and rest are not !!!
                                                            so 33% of his range in this case is value and nutty and 67% weak !

                                                            why the fuck would i raise sets against this range?
                                                            why the fuck would i wanna get rid of 2/3 of his range when i have him crushed and should take the best value line?
                                                            Again, same mistake. It's just not true.

                                                            The reason you are giving to flatting a set are exactly the reasons I'm putting money in.

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              An Irishman, a terrorist and a convict walk into a theory thread.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                                                A bit late to the party. And a lot concurrent points made, so just picking out one or two.

                                                                People will disagree on ranges all day long. So not going to go down that route as its completely subjective.
                                                                The bolded part above highlights the pretty big mistake in your thinking. There's no way you can say that. It's simply incorrect, and we know that for certain.


                                                                Again, same mistake. It's just not true.

                                                                The reason you are giving to flatting a set are exactly the reasons I'm putting money in.
                                                                So ur saying that he won't fold all his bluffs when we 3bet flop ?
                                                                So he is likely to get 150bbs in on Q94 board with like JJ or AK ?

                                                                If that's the case then obv raise ur sets but man we play in totally different games then if so !

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  got knocked out of a tourney i was looking forward to all week and didn't have anything better to do on Friday night so thought i come here and try and actually get numbers down for the lines I'm recommending :

                                                                  lets say villains range for calling our 3bet is this:

                                                                  AQ (don't think he will 4bet AQ but he may 4bet with AQs so 7 combos)
                                                                  AK (we give him less than half and assume he 4bets with other half so 4 combos)
                                                                  AJ (we say he calls with 12 of them and folds 4 of them )
                                                                  AT (say he only calls ATs and couple of other combos of it so 5 combos)
                                                                  QQ (say he has one combo of this as he mostly 4bets them)
                                                                  QJ (we give him 8 of these and say he folds the other times)
                                                                  KJ (say he calls with 12 and folds 4 )
                                                                  KQ (we give him all of these so 12 combos)
                                                                  KTs 4combos
                                                                  QTs 3combos
                                                                  J9s 3combos
                                                                  Q9s 2combos
                                                                  Q8s 3combos
                                                                  JJ 6 combos
                                                                  TT 6 combos
                                                                  99 3 combos
                                                                  88 6 combos
                                                                  77 6 combos
                                                                  66 6 combos
                                                                  55 6 combos
                                                                  44 3 combos
                                                                  33 6combos
                                                                  22 6 combos
                                                                  A9s 2combos
                                                                  A8s 3combos
                                                                  A7s 3combos
                                                                  A6s 3combos
                                                                  A5s 3combos
                                                                  A4s 3combos
                                                                  A3s 3combos
                                                                  A2 3combos
                                                                  JTs 4combos
                                                                  T9s 3combos
                                                                  78s 2combos
                                                                  67s 2combos
                                                                  K9s 3combos
                                                                  -----------------
                                                                  167 combos (i think)

                                                                  150 effective stack ,i think the above is a reasonable range for a LAG guy to call in position.

                                                                  im not saying the above range is correct but i think its reasonable ,cuz i think he has all the above in his opening range obviously and its reasonable to assume this deep ,he calls with them ...but correct me if you think I'm wrong !

                                                                  so thats a total of 167 combos !

                                                                  his value hands are then AQ,KQ,QJs,Q9s,Q8s,QTs,QQ,99,44,J9s,T9s,A9s,K9s for a total of
                                                                  50 combos!

                                                                  so 167(or there abouts) total 3bet-calling range, and 50 of them has a bit of it !

                                                                  thats about 30% value and 70% whiff ...

                                                                  so my plan for the hand post flop is to lead because :

                                                                  i think our hand is not strong enough to check/call and too strong to check/fold so i think leading is superior .

                                                                  based on my ranges,i expect a lead to get called by all the 50 combos above ,and also his:

                                                                  KJ,AK,KT,JT, and not much else...so all his gutters and all his made hands and his AK gonna call our lead .

                                                                  thats a total of 50 + 22 =72 or 43% of his range .

                                                                  so he calls a lead 43% and folds 57% .

                                                                  say we lead for half the pot,so we are getting 2/1 on our money ,which means he only has to fold 33% for us to break even !

                                                                  with the ranges i assumed, we have a nice 24% pocket here ...even if my ranges are wrong there is a lot of of +EV here to play with still !(unless I'm waaaay wrong )

                                                                  now say our lead gets called ...we know he has some 9 and some gutters in his range for calling the lead, so lets see what we can do on the turn :

                                                                  his gutters and open-enders are KT,KJ,JT = 20 combos
                                                                  he also has AK in his range when he calls flop = 2 combos
                                                                  his 9s are J9s,A9s,K9s, = 9 combos

                                                                  say he folds 1/4 of his combos of 9 to a second barrel so he folds 2 combos .

                                                                  so if we 2nd barrel he folds 20+2+2 =24 combos ...thats like 33% of his total 72 combos that he has on the turn!

                                                                  so say we lead turn for 50% again ...again we are getting 2/1 on our bluff and he only has to fold 33% of the time to break even.
                                                                  and he does ...

                                                                  i will double barrel the turn if its not a K,J,T so thats like 70% or more of the turns !

                                                                  thats not taking in to account the times we hit an A by river or pick up a flush draw on turn and get there on the river !!!

                                                                  so we are not button clicking,we haven't butchered the hand,we are not closing our eyes hoping for this card or that card,we have analysed ranges before and we have a plan and going to try and go with it !!!

                                                                  is this accepted in this evolved tournament game of now that you have mastered ?

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by Gholimoli View Post
                                                                    got knocked out of a tourney i was looking forward to all week and didn't have anything better to do on Friday night so thought i come here and try and actually get numbers down for the lines I'm recommending :

                                                                    lets say villains range for calling our 3bet is this:

                                                                    AQ (don't think he will 4bet AQ but he may 4bet with AQs so 7 combos)
                                                                    AK (we give him less than half and assume he 4bets with other half so 4 combos)
                                                                    AJ (we say he calls with 12 of them and folds 4 of them )
                                                                    AT (say he only calls ATs and couple of other combos of it so 5 combos)
                                                                    QQ (say he has one combo of this as he mostly 4bets them)
                                                                    QJ (we give him 8 of these and say he folds the other times)
                                                                    KJ (say he calls with 12 and folds 4 )
                                                                    KQ (we give him all of these so 12 combos)
                                                                    KTs 4combos
                                                                    QTs 3combos
                                                                    J9s 3combos
                                                                    Q9s 2combos
                                                                    Q8s 3combos
                                                                    JJ 6 combos
                                                                    TT 6 combos
                                                                    99 3 combos
                                                                    88 6 combos
                                                                    77 6 combos
                                                                    66 6 combos
                                                                    55 6 combos
                                                                    44 3 combos
                                                                    33 6combos
                                                                    22 6 combos
                                                                    A9s 2combos
                                                                    A8s 3combos
                                                                    A7s 3combos
                                                                    A6s 3combos
                                                                    A5s 3combos
                                                                    A4s 3combos
                                                                    A3s 3combos
                                                                    A2 3combos
                                                                    JTs 4combos
                                                                    T9s 3combos
                                                                    78s 2combos
                                                                    67s 2combos
                                                                    K9s 3combos
                                                                    -----------------
                                                                    167 combos (i think)

                                                                    150 effective stack ,i think the above is a reasonable range for a LAG guy to call in position.

                                                                    im not saying the above range is correct but i think its reasonable ,cuz i think he has all the above in his opening range obviously and its reasonable to assume this deep ,he calls with them ...but correct me if you think I'm wrong !

                                                                    so thats a total of 167 combos !

                                                                    his value hands are then AQ,KQ,QJs,Q9s,Q8s,QTs,QQ,99,44,J9s,T9s,A9s,K9s for a total of
                                                                    50 combos!

                                                                    so 167(or there abouts) total 3bet-calling range, and 50 of them has a bit of it !

                                                                    thats about 30% value and 70% whiff ...

                                                                    so my plan for the hand post flop is to lead because :

                                                                    i think our hand is not strong enough to check/call and too strong to check/fold so i think leading is superior .

                                                                    based on my ranges,i expect a lead to get called by all the 50 combos above ,and also his:

                                                                    KJ,AK,KT,JT, and not much else...so all his gutters and all his made hands and his AK gonna call our lead .

                                                                    thats a total of 50 + 22 =72 or 43% of his range .

                                                                    so he calls a lead 43% and folds 57% .

                                                                    say we lead for half the pot,so we are getting 2/1 on our money ,which means he only has to fold 33% for us to break even !

                                                                    with the ranges i assumed, we have a nice 24% pocket here ...even if my ranges are wrong there is a lot of of +EV here to play with still !(unless I'm waaaay wrong )

                                                                    now say our lead gets called ...we know he has some 9 and some gutters in his range for calling the lead, so lets see what we can do on the turn :

                                                                    his gutters and open-enders are KT,KJ,JT = 20 combos
                                                                    he also has AK in his range when he calls flop = 2 combos
                                                                    his 9s are J9s,A9s,K9s, = 9 combos

                                                                    say he folds 1/4 of his combos of 9 to a second barrel so he folds 2 combos .

                                                                    so if we 2nd barrel he folds 20+2+2 =24 combos ...thats like 33% of his total 72 combos that he has on the turn!

                                                                    so say we lead turn for 50% again ...again we are getting 2/1 on our bluff and he only has to fold 33% of the time to break even.
                                                                    and he does ...

                                                                    i will double barrel the turn if its not a K,J,T so thats like 70% or more of the turns !

                                                                    thats not taking in to account the times we hit an A by river or pick up a flush draw on turn and get there on the river !!!

                                                                    so we are not button clicking,we haven't butchered the hand,we are not closing our eyes hoping for this card or that card,we have analysed ranges before and we have a plan and going to try and go with it !!!

                                                                    is this accepted in this evolved tournament game of now that you have mastered ?
                                                                    you arent wrong thats for sure, and i agree with you, also one thing i think thats been overlooked here is the size of the 3b pre, it should be bigger at this stack depth and personally i think villain is peeling his entire opening range or very close to it so i think he's actually wider here than you think, and that makes your line better.

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      these are great

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        so i discussed my plans for flop play and also why i think calling his 3bet on the flop is much better than 4betting.

                                                                        now on to pre-flop and why i think 3betting is better than calling .

                                                                        basically it has to do with range manipulation and how a 3bet impacts ranges !

                                                                        say we accept his 3bet calling range i provided in the last post .
                                                                        so he has 167 combos or there abouts...

                                                                        of those about 52 combos contains an A and 84 combos contains either an A or K .

                                                                        so 167/52=31% contains an A
                                                                        and 167/84 =50% contains A or a K

                                                                        now consider what his open range is ...i think its fair to say he has at least another 70 to 80 combos that he opens with but will fold to our 3bet...so hands like Kxs and Qxs and 45s and 74s and stuff like that .

                                                                        say we give him 70 more combos that we opens with so that makes his opening combos a total of 167+ 70 =237 .

                                                                        still only 52 of them contains an A so this time 237/52 =22.2 %

                                                                        what I'm trying to get at, is by 3betting pre with A7(or any A blocker really) ,you have engineered a spot where you have made his range a lot more A heavy than normal,while also blocking an A .

                                                                        so say normally 40% of flops contains an A or a K when you don't hold any blockers...with a blocker then that numbers drops to about 36% i would imagine !!!

                                                                        so half his range or 50% of it contains an A or a K(when we 3bet) but he only flops them 36% .

                                                                        but if we don't 3bet pre then only 237/84 = 35% of his range contains an A or K and he flops an A or K still 36% of the time .

                                                                        so the reason why its profitable to double barrel flop and turn ,when there is no A or K on flop is due to this pre-flop range manipulation !!!

                                                                        and thats caused by3betting preflop and how that impacts his ranges !

                                                                        also when we lead flop ,again we manipulate his range ...when we lead flop that will get rid of almost all his A combos (except AQ and AK obv) .

                                                                        so while an A on flop is litterly the worse card for you,by leading flop you create a situation where an A on the turn is actually one of the best cards for you !!!

                                                                        but if you don't lead then his range will contain the same number of hand combos on the turn as it does on the flop ...like wise pre-flop .

                                                                        the only bad thing about 3betting pre flop is if you get 4bet...but blocking an A decreases the chances of that happening cuz most of his 4betting range is AA,AK,AQ and u block some of them !!!

                                                                        so essentially what 3betting pre achieves with A7s ,is to manipulate his range towards our blockers !!!

                                                                        there is simply no better card in the deck to have as a blocker, that can impact his 4betting range,and impact his flop hitting range like an A blocker !

                                                                        so again,we are not bloating the pot oop,we are not clicking buttons,we are not butchering anything...we are manipulating a range and taking advantage of the profitable situations it brings!!!

                                                                        but you are right in that i learned all the above around 2005,2006 and since then the game must have moved on a lot and passed me by so i don't know how you cool kids are doing it these days .

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          So what is your 3 betting range going to be? I still dont like turning a hand as strong as A7s into a bluff against a lag.

                                                                          Comment


                                                                            #38
                                                                            It's only a concern if the Lag has a high 4bet frequency, which he almost definitely doesn't

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by bohsman View Post
                                                                              So what is your 3 betting range going to be? I still dont like turning a hand as strong as A7s into a bluff against a lag.
                                                                              my 3bet range depends on my opponents opening range,how deep effective stacks are, and how well i think he plays post flop.

                                                                              also your not turning anything in to a bluff at all !
                                                                              by definition ,a bluff is a bet that when called ,has no chance of wining ...its not at all the case here !

                                                                              if CO opens a range of 35% then A7s runs very close in equity to that and certainly not the case where you only get called by better.

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                                It's only a concern if the Lag has a high 4bet frequency, which he almost definitely doesn't
                                                                                i agree...my point was what needs to be considered .

                                                                                obviously the wider his opening range ,the smaller his 4bet frequency and even less so when we block some of it !!!

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  So we 3bet our entire range? Seems exploitable to me.

                                                                                  True there is some value in 3betting but I'd prefer to flat and craise a lot of flops

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by bohsman View Post
                                                                                    So we 3bet our entire range? Seems exploitable to me.

                                                                                    True there is some value in 3betting but I'd prefer to flat and craise a lot of flops
                                                                                    so you prefer to take the lesser EV line than the higher EV line?

                                                                                    makes no poker sense but obviously you can do it if u like !

                                                                                    also ,where did i ever say 3bet your entire range?

                                                                                    while its true that 3betting anything ,will make his 3bet-calling range A and K heavy ,but when you don't block any of them,then you haven't decreased his chances of hitting the flop !
                                                                                    and his 4bet frequency remains untouched due to not having blockers !

                                                                                    you also can't lead post flop on a none A K boards anymore, because now a much smaller % of his range contains A or K .

                                                                                    im not saying calling with A7s is gonna be -EV ,I'm saying 3betting with it is almost always gonna be higher EV .
                                                                                    Last edited by Gholimoli; 05-11-16, 22:20.

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                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      I disagree

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                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by Gholimoli View Post
                                                                                        So ur saying that he won't fold all his bluffs when we 3bet flop ?
                                                                                        So he is likely to get 150bbs in on Q94 board with like JJ or AK ?

                                                                                        If that's the case then obv raise ur sets but man we play in totally different games then if so !
                                                                                        It's nothing got to do with games we play in, online vrs live or anything like that.
                                                                                        It's there in black and white in the OP

                                                                                        Originally posted by Gholimoli
                                                                                        so his entire range (give or take a few combos) is : 92 combos

                                                                                        of those his total value combos are:
                                                                                        AA +KK +QQ +AQ +KQ +QJ +99 = 36

                                                                                        so when hero leads the flop , then 60% of his range has missed and when we raise with our sets we get rid of 60% of his range...
                                                                                        Originally posted by Finn89
                                                                                        Folds to Hero in BB with A7cc (stack 16,000)
                                                                                        Hero raises to 900, Villain tanks for a bit then flat calls.
                                                                                        Flop is 4s 9h Qc.
                                                                                        Hero bets 1200, CO raises to 2600, hero calls raise.
                                                                                        Hero led the flop, and called a raise with A7.
                                                                                        This isn't one of the 60% of hands a raise apparently gets rid of. It obviously didnt.
                                                                                        Whether he was right to do that is irrelevant, as is whether you or I would do it. The fact is, the hero didn't fold with A7, which means, conclusively, that the above assertion was wrong.

                                                                                        Originally posted by Gholimoli View Post
                                                                                        so i discussed my plans for flop play and also why i think calling his 3bet on the flop is much better than 4betting.
                                                                                        Minor point, but there was no 3bet on the flop.
                                                                                        With the discussion jumping between pre and post discussion, and the "we" referring to the Hero in some posts, and the Villain in others, it's a little hectic at time. Might as well not add to it.

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