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    IO AK getting 3bet

    Started the Hand with 45k and the blinds are 500/1k/100.
    Were into the second level of day 2 and I have a tough enough table draw with Sean Prendiville and Andy Black to my direct left who both cover.
    Recent History: Sean Prendeville has 3bet me 3/4 last times Ive opened. He 3b bu vs co and cbet a k66 board and I check/called blank turn check/check and he potted a river Ace and I payed off to be shown A10 and he squeezed in the Bb vs Sb and Bu and showed Aces.


    I raise Ako utg to 2.2k and Sean 3bets to 5.1k next to act. Its folded back around to me. Whats your play from here?

    #2
    If blinds are 500/1000 we are talking about only the 2nd level of the day and he's 3bet u 3 times already, to do it again in EP with others behind who will have spotted the dynamic strikes me that his range "should" be quite strong but I'd still have this as wide as 9s+ and AJ+, less likely @ the lower end.
    In saying that you have to play back at him at some point and u can't really 4bet fold your stack so shoving is an option against this villain oop.
    I'd prob fold it thou.

    Comment


      #3
      I 10.9k call and love it.

      Comment


        #4
        Yeah I was thinking 3b call, hoping to induce some lighter shoves.

        You've said it is a tough table; if you're not that comfortable playing pots with these guys (not saying you're not btw) looks like a great spot to get em in and take a flip/be way ahead. Unlucky if you run into a monster.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by shano_88 View Post
          Started the Hand with 45k and the blinds are 500/1k/100.
          Were into the second level of day 2 and I have a tough enough table draw with Sean Prendiville and Andy Black to my direct left who both cover.
          Recent History: Sean Prendeville has 3bet me 3/4 last times Ive opened. He 3b bu vs co and cbet a k66 board and I check/called blank turn check/check and he potted a river Ace and I payed off to be shown A10 and he squeezed in the Bb vs Sb and Bu and showed Aces.


          I raise Ako utg to 2.2k and Sean 3bets to 5.1k next to act. Its folded back around to me. Whats your play from here?
          its a tricky spot theres not really a right answer you could make a case for making it 8k and folding to a 5 bet he s to agro to flat pre and play oop if you think he has AQ in his early p 3 betting range then you can make a case for shoving for max vaule

          Comment


            #6
            Previous history makes me think Sean has a good hand this time, but I have played a decent amount with him and I can safely say folding is not an option. I prob 4bet to between 12-14k to get it in. The other option is just to flat and I wouldn't hate it in this spot given we will always get 1 or 2 bets out of him on A/K high boards. Think it depends heavily on your read of him and his hand range in this spot.
            They will be like WTF how does he always have the top of his range, and they will be saying that when you show up with like nine's - Jimmy Fricke
            Nine's are the top of my range - Shaun Deeb

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by max_power View Post
              Yeah I was thinking 3b call
              +1 on this line. (although it's a 4b).

              Comment


                #8
                Do we really think Sean Prenderville is likely to 5 bet shove worse than AK against an utg raiser who is a sole survivor who has shown a tendancy to play tight for more than an average stack at this stage of the tournament? I would think its unlikely, not impossible but unlikely. Also the danger with a small reraise is him cold calling light (which he'd also be likely to do with AA, KK) and outplaying us or flopping huge at a later stage.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Daragh999 View Post
                  Previous history makes me think Sean has a good hand this time, but I have played a decent amount with him and I can safely say folding is not an option. I prob 4bet to between 12-14k to get it in. The other option is just to flat and I wouldn't hate it in this spot given we will always get 1 or 2 bets out of him on A/K high boards. Think it depends heavily on your read of him and his hand range in this spot.
                  Why is folding not an option?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by zuutroy View Post
                    I 10.9k call and love it.
                    What do you think he is gonna 3b/5b utg vs utg +1 that you can love getting it in?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I love the 4b in that he folds a ton of hands with good equity, and I don't mind when he 5 bets because we still prob have 50%+ equity when you factor in occasional 5b bluff jams. 4b/call is a mile in front of any other option. I think a dwell and small 4b is a great line to get an occasional spazz in his jamming range too.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                        Why is folding not an option?
                        Lol, cause he is one of the top 5 most aggro tourney players in Ireland. If you are just folding AK to a 3bet from him even in these positions he will steamroll you.
                        They will be like WTF how does he always have the top of his range, and they will be saying that when you show up with like nine's - Jimmy Fricke
                        Nine's are the top of my range - Shaun Deeb

                        Comment


                          #13
                          That's dreadful logic really IMO and takes no factoring of any type of table history, dynamics or position. In fact it's the line we'd take against an uber aggressive hyperdonk. Folding here and giving up less than 5% of our stack given dynamics and position is definitely an option

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Daragh999 View Post
                            Lol, cause he is one of the top 5 most aggro tourney players in Ireland. If you are just folding AK to a 3bet from him even in these positions he will steamroll you.
                            The only real history between us is in the op as we had only played an hour and he had been pretty much running over the table for the hour. I still didnt expect him to 3bet too light in this spot for value so his value 3betting range was maybe JJ+, AK+ in my head at the time.. Im sure he has bluffs in his range aswell though. So i guess 4bet/call and hope he thinks Im just playing back?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                              That's dreadful logic really IMO and takes no factoring of any type of table history, dynamics or position. In fact it's the line we'd take against an uber aggressive hyperdonk. Folding here and giving up less than 5% of our stack given dynamics and position is definitely an option
                              And assuming sean has a nutted range just cause he has 3bet an UTG raiser isn't much better logic sir!!! Whatever u decide to do its gonna be a really close decision hence why it's such a tough spot.
                              They will be like WTF how does he always have the top of his range, and they will be saying that when you show up with like nine's - Jimmy Fricke
                              Nine's are the top of my range - Shaun Deeb

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                Do we really think Sean Prenderville is likely to 5 bet shove worse than AK against an utg raiser who is a sole survivor who has shown a tendancy to play tight for more than an average stack at this stage of the tournament? I would think its unlikely, not impossible but unlikely. Also the danger with a small reraise is him cold calling light (which he'd also be likely to do with AA, KK) and outplaying us or flopping huge at a later stage.
                                We have approx 1 psb left if we go 14k pre and he flats.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  how active have you been? has he won every pot he has 3bet you previously? you say he's 3bet you 3 or 4 times already,

                                  in a vacuum it is hard to even consider a fold button vs. said opponent, how much does he cover you by? i don't know whether i prefer 4bet/calling or just shipping here
                                  http://drjff.blogspot.com/

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    I'm not advocating his range is nutted at all but his 5betting range would be close to nutted against OP's image hence why I don't like 4bet calling as much as folding.
                                    I think AKQJ10 posted a very similar thread to this over a year back following a discussion with Nick Heather?

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by DrJFF View Post
                                      how active have you been? has he won every pot he has 3bet you previously? you say he's 3bet you 3 or 4 times already,

                                      in a vacuum it is hard to even consider a fold button vs. said opponent, how much does he cover you by? i don't know whether i prefer 4bet/calling or just shipping here
                                      Pretty active for the first 30 mins where I picked up a few hands but didnt go to showdown. I think he had 3bet me the last 3 times I opened and won all 3. Twice I folded pre and the other time I paid off a river bet when he rivered top pair. He has ~100k.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by shano_88 View Post
                                        Pretty active for the first 30 mins where I picked up a few hands but didnt go to showdown. I think he had 3bet me the last 3 times I opened and won all 3. Twice I folded pre and the other time I paid off a river bet when he rivered top pair. He has ~100k.
                                        i shove then
                                        http://drjff.blogspot.com/

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                          That's dreadful logic really IMO and takes no factoring of any type of table history, dynamics or position. In fact it's the line we'd take against an uber aggressive hyperdonk. Folding here and giving up less than 5% of our stack given dynamics and position is definitely an option
                                          The fact its only 5% of our stack involved shouldn't matter. We are OOP to Sean for the next while and folding doesn't change that. We obviously adjust for history and imo the fact that this is his 4th 3bet improves his range.
                                          But if 4 betting is +EV than folding is a mistake. It may be one thats makes life easier. But we aren't interested in the acceptable easy way to play the hand at this stage. Just the most profitable.
                                          Originally posted by shano_88 View Post
                                          . He 3b bu vs co and cbet a k66 board and I check/called blank turn check/check and he potted a river Ace and I payed off to be shown A10 ...
                                          What did you have in this hand, did you show?
                                          Last edited by Mellor; 13-04-12, 02:06.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            interesting spot, comes down to what you think Sean thinks you'll open utg and what you think he'll 3bet - think you gotta raise with intention of getting it in _ folding like a coward and never mentioning the hand EVER is ok to


                                            whats Sean's stack ? have you opened UTG previously
                                            Last edited by nicnicnic; 13-04-12, 01:09.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              I'm definitely not as good as some players in this thread, but I think shoving is absolute madness here. The best we're hoping to get called by is QQ/JJ IMO. We're never getting called by hands we crush and we're not picking up enough to be worth risking a 45bb stack. Personally, I'd just flat the raise here and see what happens on the flop. Don't see any problem with just check/folding the flop if we miss.
                                              I really feel like people sometimes commit themselves way too much to hands like this in the fear of being outplayed. It's not the end of the world to play a hand slightly weakly and tighten up a bit with a strong aggro player with direct position on us.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Think flatting is probably the worst option tbh. It leaves you in a lot of messy situations playing a guessing game.

                                                We're oop against a good aggro player with no pair, going to get owned so often postflop.

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                                                  #25
                                                  How's your image been besides the 3 hands he's 3 bet you? If you haven't shown much aggression besides that I don't think you need to give much thought to him having a nutted range, I'd imagine he's just picking on you. Raise to 12.5k & get it in imo.

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                                                    #26
                                                    I cant believe ppl are fathoming folding ak to a prenderville 3bet, people losing their minds in this thread! 13950/call>peel>>>>>>fold

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                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by max_power View Post
                                                      Think flatting is probably the worst option tbh. It leaves you in a lot of messy situations playing a guessing game.

                                                      We're oop against a good aggro player with no pair, going to get owned so often postflop.
                                                      Its not, folding is the worst option. What messy situations will u be in flatting? Ch fold missed flops and call down when u hit, easy.

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                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by alanmc101 View Post
                                                        Its not, folding is the worst option. What messy situations will u be in flatting? Ch fold missed flops and call down when u hit, easy.
                                                        if your flatting, leading and check raising missed flops has to be in the plan, calling to just fit isn't good

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                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by nicnicnic View Post
                                                          if your flatting, leading and check raising missed flops has to be in the plan, calling to just fit isn't good
                                                          Gl leading into sean here! But ye obv we can ch rse some boards, i was jus pointin out that the hand plays easily enough post flop.

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                                                            #30
                                                            Well not messy exactly but I'm not just flatting hoping to hit an A or K.

                                                            I'm not suggesting fold as an option at all, I just don't particularly like playing 3b pots oop in this kinda situation where he's going to put pressure on us on most flops. We're hoping for an A or K hi flop obviously but as Nic said we can't be playing fit or fold in this spot and crai/leading allows him to continue when he's connected with the flop (or when he was already ahead) and dump when he's behind.

                                                            Lunch time, try get my thoughts together on this one a bit more.

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by alanmc101 View Post
                                                              Gl leading into sean here! But ye obv we can ch rse some boards, i was jus pointin out that the hand plays easily enough post flop.
                                                              I suppose it does if your just going to fold after calling and missing.

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                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by nicnicnic View Post
                                                                I suppose it does if your just going to fold after calling and missing.
                                                                Well to be honest nicky theres very little we can do here out of position when we miss. Like leading into him will force an auto raise out of him with 100% of his bluffs, check raising from time to time might work but its gonna be a shot in the dark mostly. Like we're only starting the hand with 40 odd bbs so any flop bluff raise is gonna burn a lot of our stack when we're wrong.

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                                                                  #33
                                                                  You can call and play profitably (not optimally) by just check folding if you miss , 3/1 ish pre, folding is absolute madness imo.

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by alanmc101 View Post
                                                                    Well to be honest nicky theres very little we can do here out of position when we miss. Like leading into him will force an auto raise out of him with 100% of his bluffs, check raising from time to time might work but its gonna be a shot in the dark mostly. Like we're only starting the hand with 40 odd bbs so any flop bluff raise is gonna burn a lot of our stack when we're wrong.
                                                                    if he's auto raising the lead 100% of bluffs, then jam, like were not leading for info here its the same as getting it in pre except Sean has committed loads more BBs with his non hands. If were prepared to get it in pre, then I cant envisage many flops where where not getting it in.

                                                                    that's obv high variance as is the C/r, but calling to just fold the AK if missed, IDK I think we probably get more chips long run making a play on a missed flop then we do hitting it, how often we getting paid of with worse when we connect.

                                                                    I'm not advocating calling pre but if we do we have to be prepared to get creative rather the just effectively set mining the AK

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                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by nicnicnic View Post
                                                                      if he's auto raising the lead 100% of bluffs, then jam, like were not leading for info here its the same as getting it in pre except Sean has committed loads more BBs with his non hands. If were prepared to get it in pre, then I cant envisage many flops where where not getting it in.

                                                                      that's obv high variance as is the C/r, but calling to just fold the AK if missed, IDK I think we probably get more chips long run making a play on a missed flop then we do hitting it, how often we getting paid of with worse when we connect.

                                                                      I'm not advocating calling pre but if we do we have to be prepared to get creative rather the just effectively set mining the AK
                                                                      U said it, high varience. Im too much of a nit to make that bet/3bet shove the flop vs sean here when i can fold and still have over 30bbs in the i/o but a lot of the time it gets thru a i'd say, and when called we'll prob have 6 outs which is something. Its not a set mine tho, we'll make a pair one outta 3 and we can pick of barrells. Startin the hand with 44bbs tho, im ch folding missed flops all day, we'lll still have nearly 40 bigs which is such a workable stack.

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                                                                        #36
                                                                        4bet call!! there is no fucking dicussion!!! if ur contemplating folding then why dont u leave the tournament go home and let urself blind away(probly have more chance of cashing this way) ur goal is to win the tournament after all so getting chips is the only way to do it!!!

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                                                                          #37
                                                                          Yeah really interesting spot. Its one of the best hands to discuss in holdem i.e. getting 3bet by a good player when you open UTG. Sean is redic aggro but he's not a spaz - he is definitely aware of his image and what people are forgetting here is that his 3betting range will be tightened considerably (especially since Shano is UTG and their are other really good players behind again)

                                                                          In saying that I dont think folding is an option

                                                                          I had a really similar spot to this before at the JP Masters and I talked it over with a couple of the lads for hours and we decided that the best play is to call and as weak as it sounds just c/f if you wiff. you are getting 3/1 pre flop and considering villain is like to fire at least 1 street on A/K high boards you have the odds to call.

                                                                          I dont like a 4bet here at all. If Sean jams you have to call and you are pretty much toast or flipping at best. Like I said hes aggro not a spaz and for some unknown reason the man always has it

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                                                                            #38
                                                                            Im def not folding here against the very active aggro bully (especially given the table history)....spots like these is what im looking for against them....Im happy getting them in here (and give him the decision) almost all of the time and if were not crushing him already im expecting a flip.....time to flip good if called.......to win the IO one has to flip good

                                                                            I feel we have to make a stand sometime, here could/more than likely be as good as it gets

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                                                                              #39
                                                                              Shano... I was at the table to your right and Sean was indeed running over the table. Any time I raised he also seemed to be 3 betting and it wasn't the best position to have him BB on my button. I think in this case because you have 3 bet folded to him a couple of times you are waiting for a big hand, hope he 3 bets you so you can play back at him... Given it is an EP 3 bet he is probably stronger than usual, but with AK you are def +EV against most of his range. Given that I understand how the table dynamic was going I think you simply have to 4 bet here.

                                                                              Given Andy Black was seated to Sean's left I think we had the worst seats on the table as any attempts at steals were pretty difficult. I sat down being glad that Martins Adeniya was to my right, thinking he would be aggressive, yet he hardly played a hand!

                                                                              The only mistake I think you made was 4 bet shoving earlier with AK when you must have had over 150BBs into someone with about 90BBs? Is that right? I just think in that case, the stacks are too deep and you should probably have peeled. Apologies if I've got the stacks totally wrong there, just seemed to be a spill at that time. Other than that thought you were playing well. GG mate

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by nicnicnic View Post
                                                                                interesting spot, comes down to what you think Sean thinks you'll open utg and what you think he'll 3bet - think you gotta raise with intention of getting it in _ folding like a coward and never mentioning the hand EVER is ok to


                                                                                whats Sean's stack ? have you opened UTG previously
                                                                                I dont think I had opened UTG previously. Sean had over 100k at the time. I had tightened up at the time and definitely wasn't opening light here. I dont know If he knows that though. None of my options seem great here but I didnt want to fold AK to an aggro player or play It oop so I think I should just 4b/call It off here.

                                                                                Originally posted by MarkShepherd View Post
                                                                                Shano... I was at the table to your right and Sean was indeed running over the table. Any time I raised he also seemed to be 3 betting and it wasn't the best position to have him BB on my button. I think in this case because you have 3 bet folded to him a couple of times you are waiting for a big hand, hope he 3 bets you so you can play back at him... Given it is an EP 3 bet he is probably stronger than usual, but with AK you are def +EV against most of his range. Given that I understand how the table dynamic was going I think you simply have to 4 bet here.

                                                                                Given Andy Black was seated to Sean's left I think we had the worst seats on the table as any attempts at steals were pretty difficult. I sat down being glad that Martins Adeniya was to my right, thinking he would be aggressive, yet he hardly played a hand!

                                                                                The only mistake I think you made was 4 bet shoving earlier with AK when you must have had over 150BBs into someone with about 90BBs? Is that right? I just think in that case, the stacks are too deep and you should probably have peeled. Apologies if I've got the stacks totally wrong there, just seemed to be a spill at that time. Other than that thought you were playing well. GG mate

                                                                                Ya, It was a pretty tough spot on the table. Had no option but to tighten up or go to war! Congrats on the cash btw.

                                                                                I believe the blinds were 1k/2k/200 and He had ~80k. It was another tough spot but I was between 4b/calling and 4bet shoving. I guess I could have peeled aswell. I had seen him 3bet shove earlier with A7 with 20bbs and he was defending his btn consistenly, mostly by calling but I think his range is wide enough there. At the time I made the big 4bet shove because I though he would fold 10s and maybe JJ but he would probably 5bet shove those hands If I 4bet small. We were getting close to the money aswell and wanted to put maximum pressure on. It Obviously looks bad when he snaps with AA!
                                                                                Last edited by shano_88; 13-04-12, 11:52.

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                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Cheers, gutted I didn't go deeper given started day 3 5th in chips, but took a big hit early on when I ran KK into Dempsey's set on q76 board.

                                                                                  Yeah I suppose that makes sense. I didn't realise he was as low as 40 BBs, for some reason I thought blinds were smaller.

                                                                                  I tried to stay out of Sean's way, there was once I nearly 4 bet him from button, decided against it and he showed AA! Was relieved when he busted, sic call from Andy IMO

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                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    All I keep picturing in my head while reading this thread was Sean with his laptop and a big bowl of popcorn. 4bet call a shove sure we don't like it but thats what great players like Sean do they put you those spots. Everyone has missed the biggest point, Sean knows your stack size and knows also that you will not be 4betting light as you cant fold so this makes him even more inclined to be 3betting light. You just have to take 4bet here even if we don't like it but it is a much better option than playing Sean oop if your not confident enough or lol folding.
                                                                                    Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                                    My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                                    My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Bloody hell, 4bet/call this all day long.

                                                                                      He's 3bet you liberally and you've not played back once, he probably thinks he can run you over, pretty likely given its a tough table imo.

                                                                                      You have AK. What are you waiting for? Making it 12200 here and snapping a shove. Anything else is plain bad imo.

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                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        I would rather call here and see the flop. We are in bad shape if he shoves over our 4b but we have to call given the odds against his very strong range but just because we have the rights odds to call doesn't mean that 4betting is a good play. If you had 100bb stacks and 4b someone to 90bb with 72o you would also have to 4b/call but doesn't mean that the 4b was the correct play which I am not sure it is here either.

                                                                                        Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                                                                                        All I keep picturing in my head while reading this thread was Sean with his laptop and a big bowl of popcorn. 4bet call a shove sure we don't like it but thats what great players like Sean do they put you those spots. Everyone has missed the biggest point, Sean knows your stack size and knows also that you will not be 4betting light as you cant fold so this makes him even more inclined to be 3betting light. You just have to take 4bet here even if we don't like it but it is a much better option than playing Sean oop if your not confident enough or lol folding.
                                                                                        He can very easily be 3betting light but I doubt someone is going to 5b light much here at all give that we are not going to be 4b folding much. I think 4betting as a bluff would be a much better play here if our hand wasn't AK as we should get him to fold a lot and if he shoves well we can make an easy fold.

                                                                                        The problem overall is that we make him fold all his worse hands very often and he only shoves with better ones which is not exactly what we want to be making him do, makes life very easy for him, sure it makes the hand play easily but that doesn't mean its the most profitable play.

                                                                                        Anyway super tough spot, how did the hand play out?

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                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Originally posted by digiman View Post

                                                                                          Anyway super tough spot, how did the hand play out?
                                                                                          I 4bet to 11.5k and we got It in. He had KK and I hit a straight on the river!

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                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            Originally posted by shano_88 View Post
                                                                                            I 4bet to 11.5k and we got It in. He had KK and I hit a straight on the river!
                                                                                            4bet shoving was the right play then so

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                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              hmm on a personal level, it's very worrying that I'm reading/posting in strategy threads after the pub.

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                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                                                                                I'm not advocating his range is nutted at all but his 5betting range would be close to nutted against OP's image hence why I don't like 4bet calling as much as folding.
                                                                                                I think AKQJ10 posted a very similar thread to this over a year back following a discussion with Nick Heather?
                                                                                                My thread was about early levels in tournaments, and it was during a period when most people werent 3betting pre antes.

                                                                                                This hand is just a question of how to get the chips in, Id just make it like 13k to call a shove.

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                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  Originally posted by shano_88 View Post
                                                                                                  Started the Hand with 45k and the blinds are 500/1k/100.
                                                                                                  Were into the second level of day 2 and I have a tough enough table draw with Sean Prendiville and Andy Black to my direct left who both cover.
                                                                                                  Recent History: Sean Prendeville has 3bet me 3/4 last times Ive opened. He 3b bu vs co and cbet a k66 board and I check/called blank turn check/check and he potted a river Ace and I payed off to be shown A10 and he squeezed in the Bb vs Sb and Bu and showed Aces.


                                                                                                  I raise Ako utg to 2.2k and Sean 3bets to 5.1k next to act. Its folded back around to me. Whats your play from here?
                                                                                                  The fact that I had been 3betting you so much would usually mean I'm 5b/calling or shoving lighter, but it's a bit different here, first of all it's the first time I'd 3bet you from EP and you had def tightened up since I 3b you last, having said that I'm prob 3betting you pretty wide here still, although my getting it in range is much tighter. Also, I didn't think you were gonna spaz out 4betting shit (which makes it all the more profitable to 3b!), although you prob think that I think you were, I would if I was you.

                                                                                                  If I am in you're spot with ak I'm just looking for any way to get as many chips as possible in pre against this fucker who keeps 3betting me so you played it fine, although you're not in great shape against my getting it in range, you're still gonna win the pot so much with your 4bet that it's fine. flatting is an option I suppose, you'll win a good bit from me on A and K high boards vs. my 3betting range cause I'll barrel it off a good bit, but it'll prob be tough on a lot of others...

                                                                                                  Did you really have the flush in that hand where I had 56?
                                                                                                  Last edited by MisterMonkey; 13-04-12, 14:45.

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                                                                                                    #50
                                                                                                    So what's the cut off point then? How many bbs do we have to have before we're uncomfortable putting our whole tournament on the line with AK all in pre?

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                                                                                                      #51
                                                                                                      Originally posted by MisterMonkey View Post
                                                                                                      The fact that I had been 3betting you so much would usually mean I'm 5b/calling or shoving lighter, but it's a bit different here, first of all it's the first time I'd 3bet you from EP and you had def tightened up since I 3b you last, having said that I'm prob 3betting you pretty wide here still, although my getting it in range is much tighter. Also, I didn't think you were gonna spaz out 4betting shit (which makes it all the more profitable to 3b!), although you prob think that I think you were, I would if I was you.

                                                                                                      If I am in you're spot with ak I'm just looking for any way to get as many chips as possible in pre against this fucker who keeps 3betting me so you played it fine, although you're not in great shape against my getting it in range, you're still gonna win the pot so much with your 4bet that it's fine. flatting is an option I suppose, you'll win a good bit from me on A and K high boards vs. my 3betting range cause I'll barrel it off a good bit, but it'll prob be tough on a lot of others...

                                                                                                      Did you really have the flush in that hand where I had 56?

                                                                                                      Thanks for the analysis. And yes I really had j9ss. Great fold!

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                                                                                                        #52
                                                                                                        Originally posted by KK82 View Post
                                                                                                        So what's the cut off point then? How many bbs do we have to have before we're uncomfortable putting our whole tournament on the line with AK all in pre?
                                                                                                        In general it depends on way too many factors to have a definitive answer. I presume you mean in this spot though vs Sean, I'd probably get it in pre with <40bbs always, flat sometimes and get it in sometimes with 40-50bbs and be flatting the 3bet any deeper, never folding obv.
                                                                                                        "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

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                                                                                                          #53
                                                                                                          Nits

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                                                                                                            #54
                                                                                                            What are people doing with TT, JJ, QQ and AQ in this spot, same stacksize
                                                                                                            http://drjff.blogspot.com/

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                                                                                                              #55
                                                                                                              Originally posted by nicnicnic View Post
                                                                                                              hmm on a personal level, it's very worrying that I'm reading/posting in strategy threads after the pub.
                                                                                                              Not worrying at all, your learning how to play better drunk which is the way forward imo.

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                                                                                                                #56
                                                                                                                Originally posted by DrJFF View Post
                                                                                                                What are people doing with TT, JJ, QQ and AQ in this spot, same stacksize
                                                                                                                I'd play QQ the same as AK, i'd see a flop with the others and assess from there.

                                                                                                                Yeah we're OOP vs a strong opponent and he'll put us in tough spots but we have to be prepared for that, otherwise we may as well just get up and leave.

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                                                                                                                  #57
                                                                                                                  Originally posted by digiman View Post
                                                                                                                  I would rather call here and see the flop. We are in bad shape if he shoves over our 4b but we have to call given the odds against his very strong range but just because we have the rights odds to call doesn't mean that 4betting is a good play. If you had 100bb stacks and 4b someone to 90bb with 72o you would also have to 4b/call but doesn't mean that the 4b was the correct play which I am not sure it is here either.



                                                                                                                  He can very easily be 3betting light but I doubt someone is going to 5b light much here at all give that we are not going to be 4b folding much. I think 4betting as a bluff would be a much better play here if our hand wasn't AK as we should get him to fold a lot and if he shoves well we can make an easy fold.

                                                                                                                  The problem overall is that we make him fold all his worse hands very often and he only shoves with better ones which is not exactly what we want to be making him do, makes life very easy for him, sure it makes the hand play easily but that doesn't mean its the most profitable play.

                                                                                                                  Anyway super tough spot, how did the hand play out?
                                                                                                                  I think you over thoought what I said mate, basically I would flat too but for this opponent his +ev move is to 4bet (obv depends on his post flop play).
                                                                                                                  Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                                                                                                  My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                                                                                                  My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

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                                                                                                                    #58
                                                                                                                    Originally posted by DrJFF View Post
                                                                                                                    What are people doing with TT, JJ, QQ and AQ in this spot, same stacksize
                                                                                                                    prefer 4 bet getting it in with the pairs, better shap vs his spazzale dazzle range

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                                                                                                                      #59
                                                                                                                      lol im sure prenderville is laughing his ass off at this thread ...folding obviously madness

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                                                                                                                        #60
                                                                                                                        Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                                                                                                                        I think you over thoought what I said mate, basically I would flat too but for this opponent his +ev move is to 4bet (obv depends on his post flop play).
                                                                                                                        What about the levels within the levels?

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