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    EMOP Final Table Spot

    Hi Lads,
    Appretiate ye're thoughts on a spot i found difficult on the FT of the EMOP in Prague last weekend. Some background info:

    8 players left I think (its 8 or 9)
    Average stack is approx 500k, I have 300k, Villian has 230k. There are 2 other stacks about same size as villians and the others all have big stacks.
    We have been playing for an hour on the FT, and the villian is not known to me. All I know is he is a Chech player, part of the casinos pro team. I did not play at his table anytime during the tournament.

    I have been playing very few hands due to being dealt loads of shyte. Got a couple of raises through and 3-bet shoved a lag player once on the FT, so my image has been tight.

    As for villian, he has not been involved much. He did reraise all in on his bb once to a c/o raise and was called, and both players turned up AK. So thats all the info I have.

    On to the hand. Me UTG, Villian in sb.

    Blinds 6000-12000 with a 1000 ante. I look down at A-Qo, easily my best hand so far, and I open for 27k. (im playing 25 x bb's total)
    Folded around to villian in the sb and he shoves for 230k.

    And I?

    Further information that might help. This is the payout structure, jumps are getting decent

    1: €58,900
    2: €35,340
    3: €23,560
    4; €14,320
    5: €11,080
    6: €9,000
    7: €7,850
    8: €6,690
    9: €5,540

    Something else ye might take into account. I was disappointed with my table draw.The 2 big stacks (both 1 million plus) and aggressive players were drawn in seat 1 and seat 9, and I am in seat 7. They kept me alive from 2 tables in as I was able to use my image and get my 3 bets and shoves through them without any trouble, only called once and got doubled up by one of them. So I do have a bad seat at this table.

    Hope thats enough info for ye to discuss the above hand.

    #2
    Without anything specific telling you otherwise I call.

    To be more specific myself. From the stack descriptions it seems like you are the only player at the table with a stack he could shove comfortably over with fold equity. If hes a pro, then this makes his range even wider imo. You already beat villains range in general here. He has a few worse A's, underpairs, some KQs type hands aswell as he top of his range that beats you. Im not sure of any ICM calculations but my guess would be its still a call.
    Last edited by Downtown; 06-02-12, 16:43.

    Comment


      #3
      I played pretty much an identical hand with Derek Murry on the IPC FT 3 years ago, he was utg with your hand I was in the BB, he called.

      Results below.

      SPOILER
      I had AK and crippled him, he told me after he thought it was a terrible call, I thought it was standard enough.
      #


      I normally play a lot of hands so people shove on me a lot lighter than they do on you, I call pretty much all the time with your hand, but prob fold if I am you (if you know what I mean)
      twitter
      moneybookers

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Downtown View Post
        You already beat villains range in general here. He has a few worse A's, underpairs, some KQs type hands aswell as he top of his range that beats you.
        Given the description above i'm not too sure I agree with this. Hero's image for utg opens playing 25bbs, you really think villain turns up with AJ, A10 , KQ enough of the time for it to be a call?

        Given your image and description of villain I probably hate myself and fold. Think it's really close though.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by connie147 View Post
          Hi Lads,
          Appretiate ye're thoughts on a spot i found difficult on the FT of the EMOP in Prague last weekend. Some background info:

          8 players left I think (its 8 or 9)
          Average stack is approx 500k, I have 300k, Villian has 230k. There are 2 other stacks about same size as villians and the others all have big stacks.
          We have been playing for an hour on the FT, and the villian is not known to me. All I know is he is a Chech player, part of the casinos pro team. I did not play at his table anytime during the tournament.

          I have been playing very few hands due to being dealt loads of shyte. Got a couple of raises through and 3-bet shoved a lag player once on the FT, so my image has been tight.

          As for villian, he has not been involved much. He did reraise all in on his bb once to a c/o raise and was called, and both players turned up AK. So thats all the info I have.

          On to the hand. Me UTG, Villian in sb.

          Blinds 6000-12000 with a 1000 ante. I look down at A-Qo, easily my best hand so far, and I open for 27k. (im playing 25 x bb's total)
          Folded around to villian in the sb and he shoves for 230k.

          And I?

          Further information that might help. This is the payout structure, jumps are getting decent

          1: €58,900
          2: €35,340
          3: €23,560
          4; €14,320
          5: €11,080
          6: €9,000
          7: €7,850
          8: €6,690
          9: €5,540

          Something else ye might take into account. I was disappointed with my table draw.The 2 big stacks (both 1 million plus) and aggressive players were drawn in seat 1 and seat 9, and I am in seat 7. They kept me alive from 2 tables in as I was able to use my image and get my 3 bets and shoves through them without any trouble, only called once and got doubled up by one of them. So I do have a bad seat at this table.

          Hope thats enough info for ye to discuss the above hand.
          you said it yourself you have a tight image and opening utg and shiped on by a player that the only hand you seen him play was AK its should be an easyfold on the + side you still have a resteal stack like dont think he s ever shoving AJ with your tight image so you either have like 27% equity against AK or your flipping 51% to 49% and not in your favour so i would try find another spot im sure if he was going to shove light he would of went for an easyer spot with the big stacks to his right and he has a resteal stack
          Last edited by jazzyfish; 06-02-12, 17:05.

          Comment


            #6
            No way I'm shoving over a tight player without a hand. I think I'd take a flop and then shove if I was trying to steal the pot. Why would you shove over a tight player preflop when he has turned up with big hands when called?

            I always go over the top of a tight player preflop when I have a premium hand because he normally calls whereas if he sees a flop and there is a card that scares him he can get away from it.
            'Mental Toughness is doing the right thing for the team when it's not the best thing for you' - Bill Belichick

            Comment


              #7
              edit: wrong thread.. jazzyfish sums it up for me.
              Last edited by a-k-47; 06-02-12, 17:40.

              Comment


                #8
                I think i fold here almost always given the situation and description of opponents. With 3 other stacks similar to you, and some decent pay jumps i think we've a lot of play left rather than take what's going to be best case scenario a flip as an underdog. I can't see him doing this enough with AJ, KQ or any other hands we're ahead of to make it profitable. If ever a hand looked like AK, this would be it.

                I don't he has AA/KK here because he knows that you'll fold almost your enitre range to the action, and if i'm in his spot i'd prefer to raise/call than shove. I'm getting it in against a bigger stack, but not against the shorter stack considering you opened UTG. We've still enough chips to do some damage and get our chips in first instead of calling it off for at best a race.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by eagle eye View Post
                  No way I'm shoving over a tight player without a hand. I think I'd take a flop and then shove if I was trying to steal the pot. Why would you shove over a tight player preflop when he has turned up with big hands when called?

                  I always go over the top of a tight player preflop when I have a premium hand because he normally calls whereas if he sees a flop and there is a card that scares him he can get away from it.
                  AQ is a monster hand on a FT with 25bbs

                  Taking a flop against a player with 25bbs with the intention of stealing the pot on the flop is a bad idea seen as you will be facing a c bet most of the time. You will find yourself shoving with less fold equity with less equity if called than a shove pre.

                  The last part I bolded really is not profitable play and your thought process is flawed in theory.

                  Villain and Hero have the perfect stacks for the Villain to shove over hero. Puts hero in lots of difficult spots..hence the thread.
                  Last edited by Downtown; 06-02-12, 18:00.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by LTL View Post
                    Given the description above i'm not too sure I agree with this. Hero's image for utg opens playing 25bbs, you really think villain turns up with AJ, A10 , KQ enough of the time for it to be a call?

                    Given your image and description of villain I probably hate myself and fold. Think it's really close though.
                    If hes any good I would expect him to show up with those hands quite a bit.

                    It is close, I just call.

                    If you are going to open and fold to a 3 bet here then it doesnt matter if you have AQ.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Downtown View Post
                      AQ is a monster hand on a FT with 25bbs
                      I opened the thread and was sure of the same reading it. Still though there are are other factors in it that make this a fold. I'm fairly sure ICM will say fold although this can be flawed I don't think it will be too off here. We open UTG, the SB is jamming on an tight players UTG open screams strength IMO. I reckon I fold here with all things considered but putting it in here could t be godawful could it? Interesting spot for sure.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I call it off here

                        considering the position each player is in it is unlikely the SB is jamming with the complete airball. In saying that because he is in the SB it is difficult for him to flat with a decent % of his range and play the hand out of position - Im thinking pocket pairs and AJ+ so he will be jamming quite wide on you. Im not overly thrilled about it but I think you have to call it off here

                        Also nobody has mentioned that other players could pick up on Connie raise/folding a 25BB stack - not that it would be as big a deal as raise folding a 15bb stack but even still you dont want to be encouraging other players to play back at you more because you are percieved as weak

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Surely ,9 handed, from UTG you've a bit more to worry about than just the tightness of the BB?

                          Edit - read it arseways nvm
                          Last edited by Dice75; 06-02-12, 18:21.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
                            Surely ,9 handed, from UTG you've a bit more to worry about than just the tightness of the BB?
                            Not 100% sure what you mean, but it was the SB that shoved which should tighten his range a little more than if he was the BB

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Bunch of nits in here folding AQ to a 19 bb shove

                              Comment


                                #16
                                maybe this is why some of ye crowd make more money than me, but i move my chips forward 1mm and throw my cards on their backs with a big smile on my face, maybe even a victor cruz salsa dance.
                                airport, lol

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by BallymoreChris View Post
                                  I played pretty much an identical hand with Derek Murry on the IPC FT 3 years ago, he was utg with your hand I was in the BB, he called.

                                  Results below.

                                  SPOILER
                                  I had AK and crippled him, he told me after he thought it was a terrible call, I thought it was standard enough.
                                  #


                                  I normally play a lot of hands so people shove on me a lot lighter than they do on you, I call pretty much all the time with your hand, but prob fold if I am you (if you know what I mean)
                                  Agree with Chris here. There's a number of important factors here: perceived image of both players and ICM. Connies image is crucial and means unless the villain is a clown or a maniac he won't be shoving many worse hands. The only one I can think of I might shove here over Connie is kqs and even then I might not. Aq is flipping against most of the range so the call is not horrible but all things considered I'm Pretty sure it's a fold. Connie is at the bottom of his perceived range so if the villain is taking a flyer with worse then good luck to him. ICM is a fairly big factor here because of how much of our stack it is and tips it further towards fold.

                                  If Connie had a much looser image it'd be a call
                                  My poker blog - Doking around in cyberspace

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by doke View Post
                                    Agree with Chris here. There's a number of important factors here: perceived image of both players and ICM. Connies image is crucial and means unless the villain is a clown or a maniac he won't be shoving many worse hands. The only one I can think of I might shove here over Connie is kqs and even then I might not. Aq is flipping against most of the range so the call is not horrible but all things considered I'm Pretty sure it's a fold. Connie is at the bottom of his perceived range so if the villain is taking a flyer with worse then good luck to him. ICM is a fairly big factor here because of how much of our stack it is and tips it further towards fold.

                                    If Connie had a much looser image it'd be a call
                                    +1 villain never kqs here imo and worse aces very rarely, his range is AK & pairs a call=flipping almost always for me=fold (might still lean toward calling it off considering stacks )

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      I fold her and move on.
                                      I'm under the impression that connie is a reasonable tight player anyway, so if he has been gettign shite, then he's even tighter than usual. This image coupled with the fact the villain is tight also leads me to believe that we aren't too strong against his range. With are flipping occasionally, nut crushed often enough to make it -$EV. THe ICM aspect only compounds the fold.

                                      Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                                      Also nobody has mentioned that other players could pick up on Connie raise/folding a 25BB stack - not that it would be as big a deal as raise folding a 15bb stack but even still you dont want to be encouraging other players to play back at you more because you are percieved as weak
                                      That's quite a selective prediction. And, imo, way off.
                                      Connie is playing tight, he isn't going to suddenly open up his range due to folding here. In future hands he'll be less likely to bet/fold the smaller stack, yet his range remains as strong. If other players were to start 3 betting lighter than normal, it would probably be a mistake on their behalf.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by A_CitizenErased
                                        Hey Connie,

                                        Was looking at this hand and found it very interesting. As Dara mentioned I think ICM plays a huge factor in this hand.

                                        So we are playing 25bbs and have a tight image. Due to there being a 1000 ante, we have approx 20 effective big blinds. We raise UTG with A-Q and the Sb shoves....

                                        Now seeing as this is the final table of the EMOP we are going to presume the villian understands ICM and Shoving ranges..

                                        So I ran a few scenarios of this through ICM. I couldnt get an exact one as I dont know the other players exact chip stacks which would make a big difference, but fortunately all the scenarios I put in came out quite close.

                                        The SB's calling range if you shoved would be KK+. So seeing as you put in a raise and you have 20 effective big blinds I calculated that his shoving range here is APPROXIMATELY:

                                        7.1%, QQ+ ATs+ A5s-A4s AJo+ KQs KQo

                                        Again, the A5s-A4s might make no sense if you are playing tight so it will always depend on villain but he can be shoving any out of the above.

                                        Obviously we need to factor in your table tightness so he may only be shoving the premiums out of the above range but after running it a few times, I can see him shoving these hands. ^^
                                        A_CE i know you're trying, but you be mad! Esp this bit

                                        The SB's calling range if you shoved would be KK+

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by A_CitizenErased
                                          The SB's calling range if you shoved would be KK+. So seeing as you put in a raise and you have 20 effective big blinds I calculated that his shoving range here is APPROXIMATELY:

                                          7.1%, QQ+ ATs+ A5s-A4s AJo+ KQs KQo
                                          Antes don't change effective stack.
                                          And that range is bizarre. He shoves A4 and KQ but not JJ

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                            A_CE i know you're trying, but you be mad! Esp this bit
                                            When I put everything into ICM thats what it said.

                                            What is his calling range if we shoved here?

                                            Meh, Il delete the post.
                                            Last edited by A_CitizenErased; 06-02-12, 22:47.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              If I were you Connie, I'd fold here.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by A_CitizenErased View Post
                                                When I put everything into ICM thats what it said.

                                                What is his calling range if we shoved here?

                                                Meh, Il delete the post.
                                                did you use the ICM/Nash Equilibrium calculator on holdemresources.net?
                                                Looks like their format. And I think you might be mis-reading the table it gives.

                                                It suggests that Connie should open shove 7.1%, QQ+ ATs+ A5s-A4s AJo+ KQs KQo, not the SB. And that the SB should call JJ+ AKs . Which looks about right.
                                                The KK+ range you mentioned is from the third column, thats his over-call range. ie the range he should call after another players has called a shove from Connie.

                                                But this is just raw push fold calcs. Its too early to rely on that as we aren't at a pushfold point yet.
                                                Evidence of this is the abnormality in Connies initial shove range, fold JJ but shove A4. Because we are deeper, we are betting not open shoving. Which changes a lot. It also changes the SB range from a call range to a 3bet range.

                                                To look at this from an ICM point of view, we only need to isolate connie's call decision, ICM of folding vrs ICM of calling.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  As seems to be the case as stated by (most of) the top guns the consensus is that it may be close, but as close as it is its a fold........

                                                  Connies image as stated here is tight, he's been playing very little for a couple of hrs due to card death, raised earlier and folded to shoves..(fair enough he's been shown AK),.... so, how does a shortstacked villain (but one who still has plenty fold equity...for now) play against a tight player, does he not shove a lot of ATs+ and his small-med pairs and pairs up to QQ (of which we have a Q) so statistically reduces the chance of QQ, so that he maximises his fold equity....as someone posted earlier shoving KK or AA here could scare off the chance of a real pot, so imo all were worried about is being dominated by AK, or flipping against all pairs from JJ and under......even against AK well theres always a suckout!!....the villain is a team pro, that says to me he'd try and exploit at a lot of opportunitys.....

                                                  For me, its gamble time, the chance to take out a player, virtually double up, move up the ladder....or unlucky GG........

                                                  All thats said by someone who's yet to savour an experience such as an EMOP FT so can well be taken with a pinch of salt!!!

                                                  Great run Connie, was glued to the updates all w-end and the stream on Sunday!! One thing for sure is that when you keep knocking on the door its will open eventually!!

                                                  VWP
                                                  Last edited by ferg; 06-02-12, 23:34.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Given your image and table dynamic description, I think this is a fold. Can't see BB shoving much worse here (like if you reverse the question to the BB's pov, "tight player opens utg, I have AJ in the BB" I'd be recommending to fold the AJ).

                                                    Villain is shoving for 19Bbs correct, and you're playing 25BBs? Ya can't really see how villain can be shoving super light here considering you don't have the weakest appearing range.
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                                                      #27
                                                      the lads post here have made me realise that folding seems to be the better play, were all learning!
                                                      airport, lol

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        I'd love to here OP thoughts on what his think was before the open. Was he getting it in against some players like the big stacks and calling shoves from maybe other shorties? Had you looked around and decided preflop what you were gonna do if you raised or deciding as the action played out?

                                                        The ranges on ICM like AC_E are flawed. They don't assume anything about player's tendencies or dictate ranges for players. The SB is never shoving A4s here for example. I'd air on the tight side in that he's probably shoving 99+(maybe 88?), AQ+. How do we do against that range? Flipping or crushed. It's a fold in practice and fold in ICM.

                                                        The most important thing in this is image for me. We're a tight player, our villian hasn't gotten too out of line by just simply shoving AK button v BB on hand before. If he's not going to induce there he's just gonna snap shove every single one of his value hands aswell.

                                                        I think he shoves AA and KK here. 3 betting small out of a 19bb stack with AA or KK for example isn't going to change much against a tight player opening UTG. I shove AA and KK here if i'm the small blind. Why scream strength when OP isn't really percieved to ever spaz and is either gonna get it in pre or fold?

                                                        We beat nothing and flip a bit, that's what it comes down to in the end imo. Folding.

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Tough spot Con. Initially I thought this was a call and here's why. This is live poker - your image is paramount. You have been so tight that everybody on and off the table is aware of it. You even spoke about it a bit yourself at the breaks.

                                                          However, players have also got to suspect that your opening range will gradually be widening up as a result of this too (as illustrated with the hand you opened with 6-4). Therefore, as your opponent, I'd be widening my re-shipping range against you also. With this in mind, it tilts me towards a call in your spot.
                                                          http://www.pokerireland.ie

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by peterswellman View Post
                                                            I'd love to here OP thoughts on what his think was before the open. Was he getting it in against some players like the big stacks and calling shoves from maybe other shorties? Had you looked around and decided preflop what you were gonna do if you raised or deciding as the action played out?

                                                            The ranges on ICM like AC_E are flawed. They don't assume anything about player's tendencies or dictate ranges for players. The SB is never shoving A4s here for example. I'd air on the tight side in that he's probably shoving 99+(maybe 88?), AQ+. How do we do against that range? Flipping or crushed. It's a fold in practice and fold in ICM.

                                                            The most important thing in this is image for me. We're a tight player, our villian hasn't gotten too out of line by just simply shoving AK button v BB on hand before. If he's not going to induce there he's just gonna snap shove every single one of his value hands aswell.

                                                            I think he shoves AA and KK here. 3 betting small out of a 19bb stack with AA or KK for example isn't going to change much against a tight player opening UTG. I shove AA and KK here if i'm the small blind. Why scream strength when OP isn't really percieved to ever spaz and is either gonna get it in pre or fold?

                                                            We beat nothing and flip a bit, that's what it comes down to in the end imo. Folding.
                                                            Hi,
                                                            Yeah, maybe I should have explained my thinking there like you're asking for.

                                                            I am in seat 7

                                                            If seat 8 shoves on me, I call. he is the shortstack (approx 160k) and I know he's itching to find a spot to get them in with.

                                                            If seat 9 3-bets me out of his 1 million stack, I'm insta 4-bet shipping. (played with him all of day 2, and he loves to raise and reraise with all type of hands)

                                                            If seat 2 3-bets me out of his million stack, , then its an instant 4 bet shove as well similar to player 9 and is well known to me fron various EMOP's.

                                                            seat 3 is Kevin Spillane who has just lost most of his chips unluckily in the previous hand, and if he ships on me, I call as Im pretty sure Kevin could shove lightish here specially with what happened the hand before.

                                                            seat 4 is a chech player with a big stack. Very aggressive but I played with him for a few hours on day 2 and I wouldnt rate him as a good player. No way Im folding to a 3-bet from him here.

                                                            seat 5 is the villian.

                                                            seat 6 is a german player that plays biggish hands in a funny way. Saw him flatting in the sb with JJ on day 2 and winning the pot. Spoke to him about itwhen play on day 2 finished (I wanted to get his thought process for the hand as I thought that would help on the FT. He told me that when the button raised, the button had 230k similar to him and he didnt want to be 4-bet if he 3-bet with the JJ) and said he'd play QQ the same way. He then went and done the same thing on the FT. Kevin Spillane raised the c/o, this guy flatted in the sb. Looked like a great squeeze spot for me but not with the info I now had on him. Turns out Kevin raised with 88 band flopped a set and this guy flatted in the sb with JJ again. He did go all-in once preflop on the FT and showed up with AK. So I would have probably folded to a shove from him too.


                                                            In short, I was really hoping to be 3-bet by seat 9, 2 or 4 who all had loads of chips to be 3-betting with, or shoved on by seat 8.


                                                            Connie

                                                            I

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Really good post explaining your thought processes Connie. Players should always go through this type of thinking before they open rather than just thinking "Cool, I've AQ here, good hand" and auto-opening. I remember John Eames told me once he'd often fold AQ utg with < 30 bbs which shocked me at the time but I understand what he meant now.
                                                              My poker blog - Doking around in cyberspace

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                +1 on what Connie and Doke have said. You have to have a plan with your hands, you shouldn't just raise with a hand because you think "you're supposed to" or that it's too strong to fold.

                                                                It's all about the situation, and there's plenty of situations where folding what seems like a really strong hand can be correct.
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                                                                  #33
                                                                  I put the hand up for anylasis because it was being shown with hole cards, and apparently, the commentators were lolling at my decision to fold the AQ. Now, they had the benefit of seeing my opponnent had 10-10 in the sb when he shoved. What they didnt have the benefit of was knowing how most of these players played and playing accordingly.

                                                                  Of course I understand that calling off with the AQ there is quite acceptable in most players eyes. But when I have big decisions like that to make, I try to weigh everything up so that I can make the best decision possible at that time for me. I didnt insta fold, I tanked for say 2 or 3 minutes and then folded. I figured he didnt shove on me there with worse aces so i was either flipping or dominated. 23 big blinds in an hour long blind structure is still enough to play with, and really, I would prefer to be 3-bet by one of the big stacks where I would expect them to have less than big starting hands. I didnt see the tv coverage, but I believe 2 queens and an Ace were folded p/f by other players in the hand so i guess it wouldnt have been a 50/50 if I had gone with it, not that I would have known that at the time (but you would think the commentators would have spotted it :-)

                                                                  It wouldnt have made much difference money wise anyway because I finished up getting it in during the next blind level with QQ against the big stacks Ah-Kh. the flop comes all hearts and Im virtually drawing dead.
                                                                  Thanks for ye're imput. It was pretty much as I expected with a mixed bag, but sure isnt that why we put the hands up here in the 1st place.

                                                                  Connie

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Folding is fine here with solid read on SB. TT is like the very bottom of his range anyway so w/e, commentators are usually clueless. Nice run, ul
                                                                    "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by Winning! View Post
                                                                      , commentators are usually clueless. Nice run,
                                                                      Paging Megatron and nicnicnic to this comment...
                                                                      Redbet at the Dublin Poker Invasion FTW

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by Winning! View Post
                                                                        Folding is fine here with solid read on SB. TT is like the very bottom of his range anyway so w/e, commentators are usually clueless. Nice run, ul
                                                                        what do you do with 77, AJ or KQs in SB position?

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          #37
                                                                          Fold against a tight players UTG open with shallow stacks ^^^

                                                                          Against an unknown or a more lag player it's a shove.
                                                                          Last edited by The Aul Switcharoo; 07-02-12, 17:37.
                                                                          Redbet at the Dublin Poker Invasion FTW

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                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by connie147 View Post
                                                                            I put the hand up for anylasis because it was being shown with hole cards, and apparently, the commentators were lolling at my decision to fold the AQ. Now, they had the benefit of seeing my opponnent had 10-10 in the sb when he shoved. What they didnt have the benefit of was knowing how most of these players played and playing accordingly.

                                                                            Of course I understand that calling off with the AQ there is quite acceptable in most players eyes. But when I have big decisions like that to make, I try to weigh everything up so that I can make the best decision possible at that time for me. I didnt insta fold, I tanked for say 2 or 3 minutes and then folded. I figured he didnt shove on me there with worse aces so i was either flipping or dominated. 23 big blinds in an hour long blind structure is still enough to play with, and really, I would prefer to be 3-bet by one of the big stacks where I would expect them to have less than big starting hands. I didnt see the tv coverage, but I believe 2 queens and an Ace were folded p/f by other players in the hand so i guess it wouldnt have been a 50/50 if I had gone with it, not that I would have known that at the time (but you would think the commentators would have spotted it :-)

                                                                            It wouldnt have made much difference money wise anyway because I finished up getting it in during the next blind level with QQ against the big stacks Ah-Kh. the flop comes all hearts and Im virtually drawing dead.
                                                                            Thanks for ye're imput. It was pretty much as I expected with a mixed bag, but sure isnt that why we put the hands up here in the 1st place.

                                                                            Connie
                                                                            Firstly who gives a fook what 'commentators' think. They get to see the hole cards and, mostly, don't know whats going on re table dynamics etc:

                                                                            Think from reading here that it's a fold but a call isn't bad either.

                                                                            When your in those spots you go with your read, your gut and the odds given. Not what the commentators think.

                                                                            Nice run & UL on exit hand...

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                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by connie147 View Post

                                                                              8 players left I think (its 8 or 9)
                                                                              Average stack is approx 500k, I have 300k, Villian has 230k and the others all have big stacks.

                                                                              I have been playing very few hands due to being dealt loads of shyte. Got a couple of raises through and 3-bet shoved a lag player once on the FT, so my image has been tight.

                                                                              As for villian, he has not been involved much. He did reraise all in on his bb once to a c/o raise and was called, and both players turned up AK. So thats all the info I have.

                                                                              On to the hand. Me UTG, Villian in sb.

                                                                              Blinds 6000-12000 with a 1000 ante. I look down at A-Qo, easily my best hand so far, and I open for 27k. (im playing 25 x bb's total)
                                                                              Folded around to villian in the sb and he shoves for 230k.

                                                                              And I?


                                                                              Hope thats enough info for ye to discuss the above hand.

                                                                              This has to be a call fro me I think, though I'm not over the moon about it.

                                                                              Consider what Connie has told us:

                                                                              1) His image is tight, an UTG raise here shows strength.

                                                                              2) Villain knows this, and also knows the only shove he himself has shown down is AK in a similar spot (from his blind).

                                                                              In light of these 2 considerations, I think what downtown has said about villain's shoving range is correct - AQ beats a lot of it.

                                                                              He (villain)is aware that we will interpret the shove as extreme strength and will give up all but the top 3% of our opening range. The case for a situationally-aware player to be shoving somewhat light at these stack sizes is very strong.

                                                                              I don't know jack about the EMOP, but you've got to give your opponent credit for being capable of such a move. Furthermore, when you do call doWn the raise with AQo and survive, the other shorties at the table are going to think twice about trying to pull a move like this over your EP raises with KJsuited.

                                                                              Also, this:

                                                                              Also nobody has mentioned that other players could pick up on Connie raise/folding a 25BB stack - you dont want to be encouraging other players to play back at you more because you are percieved as weak

                                                                              For me, a close enough call. I'm not too happy about way the money's going in, but there's a lot of value in the fear and respect gained after the show the guts to make this call.

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                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by loopers View Post
                                                                                .... and will give up all but the top 3% of our opening range
                                                                                Arse ^^^

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                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Folding here seems easily best. Doesn't seem close.
                                                                                  Foldaramus et foldarabimus

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                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by connie147 View Post
                                                                                    I put the hand up for anylasis because it was being shown with hole cards, and apparently, the commentators were lolling at my decision to fold the AQ.

                                                                                    Connie
                                                                                    They should hire better commentators
                                                                                    My poker blog - Doking around in cyberspace

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                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                                                                                      what do you do with 77, AJ or KQs in SB position?
                                                                                      Call 77 and fiold the other two
                                                                                      Originally posted by loopers View Post
                                                                                      He (villain)is aware that we will interpret the shove as extreme strength and will give up all but the top 3% of our opening range.
                                                                                      We are opening pretty tight UTG.
                                                                                      3% of that opening range is equal to AA only.

                                                                                      For me, a close enough call. I'm not too happy about way the money's going in, but there's a lot of value in the fear and respect gained after the show the guts to make this call.
                                                                                      Disagree. From a the point of view of the other players, the hand will look pretty insignificant. Bet/call with AQ, its hardly going to scream don't bluff the irish guy.
                                                                                      Last edited by Mellor; 07-02-12, 22:33.

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                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by Mellor View Post

                                                                                        We are opening pretty tight UTG.
                                                                                        3% of that opening range is equal to AA only.
                                                                                        Ya bad phrasing on my part; I mean the top 3% of hands in general, not of our opening range. AA, KK, AK like.

                                                                                        The point that I'm making is that the shove from the czech fella looks extremely strong, to the extent that many good players will lay down a strong hand (the point of the thread in the 1st place and also shown by responses of many posters). If he's using his head he'll be aware of this and shove a little wider, knowing that we will have to lay down hands that are on average stronger than his holdings.


                                                                                        Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                                                                        Disagree. From a the point of view of the other players, the hand will look pretty insignificant. Bet/call with AQ, its hardly going to scream don't bluff the irish guy.
                                                                                        You're prolly right. Overthink.

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                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Originally posted by loopers View Post
                                                                                          The point that I'm making is that the shove from the czech fella looks extremely strong, to the extent that many good players will lay down a strong hand (the point of the thread in the 1st place and also shown by responses of many posters). If he's using his head he'll be aware of this and shove a little wider, knowing that we will have to lay down hands that are on average stronger than his holdings.
                                                                                          This makes no sense in so many ways.

                                                                                          The main way is that the shove from the sb looks extremely strong cos it needs to be extremely strong.
                                                                                          Foldaramus et foldarabimus

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                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            Originally posted by TM2204 View Post
                                                                                            Firstly who gives a fook what 'commentators' think. They get to see the hole cards and, mostly, don't know whats going on re table dynamics etc:

                                                                                            Think from reading here that it's a fold but a call isn't bad either.

                                                                                            When your in those spots you go with your read, your gut and the odds given. Not what the commentators think.

                                                                                            Nice run & UL on exit hand...

                                                                                            Let me make it clear, I didnt see the programme or the commentary, just heard about it, and it doesnt bother me in the least. I didnt think my fold was a bad play, but when people say its lol bad, it put a few of us who travelled over together talking about the hand and I said I'd put it up here for disection.
                                                                                            Ive thrusted my gut for a good few years and i guess thats not gonna change at this stage!!

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                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              I have the image of Connie thrusting his gut now. *Shudder*

                                                                                              I'm sorry, that's the level of contribution that I'm capable of.
                                                                                              @OwenRua on Twitter.

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                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                I think this hand is really close, I wouldn't pay much attention to the commentators. I don't agree that the guys shipping range is that tight, but if it is reasonably tight you have about 36% equity. (Vs AQs+ 88+).

                                                                                                You can see how close it is because of how you would play a slightly better or worse hand. AK you are insta calling, AJ you are folding. (Maybe with a sigh )

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                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  Originally posted by connie147 View Post
                                                                                                  Let me make it clear, Ive thrusted my gut for a good few years and i guess thats not gonna change at this stage!!
                                                                                                  Originally posted by NuckChorris


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