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    If you are going for the market you may need to invest 10-15 years to eek out a few percent more after tax than your mortgage fees at a guess. Since 2000, the average annualised return for the developed world was around 4.76%, whereas the annualised return for emerging markets was 9.53%. Higher in recent years, if you had put 50/50 into world/emerging market index in 2003, then you would have returned 10% compound annual growth. That figure takes into account 0.13% fund fees and 0.45% platform fees. However that means nothing for the future. https://www.msci.com/documents/10199...4-43fcb5bd6523 /stole from reddit

    While you've all been debating and not buying - bitcoin has hit 15k


    Interested in this myself as I have money that I need to use but I'm not gonna drop it into all into BTC.
    Last edited by Tar.Aldarion; 07-12-17, 10:21.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Mellor View Post
      There's a compulsory pension for all employees in Australia. So my various employers have put away 9-10% for me.

      Paying off the mortgage doesn't really achieve anything. As when it's sitting in my savings it's deducted from the debt each month.
      Has to be taken into consideration too, something like an index would have to average higher than mortgage rate to be +EV
      Don't forget to factor in taxes due on investment profits. Hopefully Australia has a less punitive from prudent savers/investors compared to Ireland.

      I guess with ~4% mortgage interest lumping into the mortgage is like a guaranteed 6/7% growth in an index when taxes and charges are included.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Mellor View Post
        Interest is about 3.8% atm.



        Could buy lotto tickets I suppose.
        What's the tax rate on investment growth in Oz?

        In Ireland if you were paying 3.8%p.a. on the mortgage (lower rate than I was expecting btw) you'd need to achieve 6.3%p.a. on your investments to offset the investment taxes and achieve the equivalent return. A bit less if you were subject to CGT but that would require a larger scale investment to make sense.

        People laugh at 6.3& growth at the moment in the context of equity markets and bitcoin but when you look at current bond valuations in a decades time locking in 6.3%p.a. compound growth could look a very good decision.

        Having said that you might be risk seeking and want to try and get higher levels of return and using your own personal leverage (via your mortgage) and be comfortable with that. IF that is the case I think you need to do your homework and go into it with your eyes fully open having run all the numbers and having a genuine understanding of your personal capacity to take investment risk etc.

        It's impossible to genuinely give anything more than a vague steer without a full financial factfind and an in depth discussion on investment attitudes etc.
        Last edited by V for Vendetta; 07-12-17, 10:27.
        ‘IF YOU had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.” Genghis Khan

        Comment


          Originally posted by V for Vendetta View Post
          What's the tax rate on investment growth in Oz?

          In Ireland if you were paying 3.8%p.a. on the mortgage (lower rate than I was expecting btw) you'd need to achieve 6.3%p.a. on your investments to offset the investment taxes and achieve the equivalent return. A bit less if you were subject to CGT but that would require a larger scale investment to make sense.
          Capital gains are taxed as income. So 32.5% or 37% for the vast majority people. Plus 2% Medicare levy. So about 6.2% looks to be b/e

          Comment


            I can confirm that buying a plane is not a good investment strategy.

            Comment


              Does flying a small plane affect life insurance?

              Comment


                Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                Does flying a small plane affect life insurance?
                Not sure tbh. Probably should check. It's about the same risk as motorbiking on an hour by hour basis.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Keane View Post
                  Think in an Irish context at least taking a chunk off the mortgage seems to win fairly comfortably in this sort of situation, assuming decent pension setup already in place. Can't remember the exact maths but can dig up examples if you want.
                  If you are early stage in a SVR product paying 3.5-4% then you have to beat that by a large enough margin to make anything else make much sense. With the caveat that you must be willing and able to lose the utility of the money.
                  May you live in interesting times!

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                    Paying off the mortgage doesn't really achieve anything. As when it's sitting in my savings it's deducted from the debt each month.
                    What did you mean by this bit I meant to ask, by the way?

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Keane View Post
                      What did you mean by this bit I meant to ask, by the way?
                      Assume it's an offset account, I.e. Any money on deposit is removed from the remaining mortgage each month when calculating interest due. We had one when we were in Ireland.
                      Join the IPB Fantasy Football League 19/20

                      http://www.irishpokerboards.com/foru...88#post1104188

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Iago View Post
                        Assume it's an offset account, I.e. Any money on deposit is removed from the remaining mortgage each month when calculating interest due. We had one when we were in Ireland.
                        Never heard of that, interesting.

                        Comment


                          ...
                          "We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Keane View Post
                            What did you mean by this bit I meant to ask, by the way?
                            Pretty much as Iago said. All of our accounts offset the mortgage.
                            So say there was 200k owing, and savings of 50k. You can pay it off if leaving it sitting in savings. Either way you only pay interest on 150k


                            (Numbers made up entirely, sadly )

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by zuutroy View Post
                              I can confirm that buying a plane is not a good investment strategy.
                              You need to cut out the frills

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                Pretty much as Iago said. All of our accounts offset the mortgage.
                                So say there was 200k owing, and savings of 50k. You can pay it off if leaving it sitting in savings. Either way you only pay interest on 150k


                                (Numbers made up entirely, sadly )
                                In this case it sounds like you can dip in and out of your hypothetical 50k as needed and the mortgage interest is just calculated on the amount owed minus amount in savings every month? Or the 50k is committed to the mortgage for good?

                                Comment


                                  Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                                  Does flying a small plane affect life insurance?
                                  Crashing it has a bigger effect.

                                  I wonder if Zutrophy would fly his into the eye of an agressive Alien space ship if we needed him to. Or maybe even Darndale or perhaps (sorry Hotspur) some travellers.

                                  Comment


                                    Let's see if I understand things correctly - either the bitcoin cheerleaders are correct, and BTC will eventually go to $100k+ or it is a bubble and it's true value is nothing like the current price - there is no middle ground, right?

                                    Or are there arguments saying 'well, it's actually worth $20k and even if it goes above (and below) due to volatility, it will trade around that range for the foreseeable future'?

                                    Anyone have insight here? It sorta seems that if those heralding the recent rises are in any way correct in terms of their viewpoint, that $15k is only a moment on the way to $100k+


                                    Comment


                                      Just giving Doke and Lappin's Chip Race a bump. Been some great stuff on it in recent weeks/months!

                                      Comment


                                        Originally posted by ionapaul View Post
                                        Let's see if I understand things correctly - either the bitcoin cheerleaders are correct, and BTC will eventually go to $100k+ or it is a bubble and it's true value is nothing like the current price - there is no middle ground, right?

                                        Or are there arguments saying 'well, it's actually worth $20k and even if it goes above (and below) due to volatility, it will trade around that range for the foreseeable future'?

                                        Anyone have insight here? It sorta seems that if those heralding the recent rises are in any way correct in terms of their viewpoint, that $15k is only a moment on the way to $100k+
                                        I just can't see how it can grow with the constraints? There's a limit on the transaction speed, and the energy use is ginormous and growing?

                                        100k is based more on hope than any measurement of it's intrinsic value.

                                        Comment


                                          There is room for some amount of time when people do not know (as none of us do) what will happen with crypto and it could become more stable, I doubt it though. The shortterm foreseeable future is all you can really look at, and this has been really easy to calculate so far. Barring any government interference it has gone up simply because so many people are hearing about it now.

                                          Coinbase was getting 100,000 new accounts a day, it doesn't take a genius to see that it would increase massively considering there are only about 13 million coins in total (due to lost coins), it's very limited with huge demand.

                                          If it is actually adopted even a bit more $15k is absolute peanuts compared to what it will be worth, of course at any time it could take a nosedive due to several different things, and it could quite fast. Governments will have an interest in it failing if it gets too successful. All of these people are just looking to make a quick buck than believe in the ethos of decentralized "currency" so will sell at a drop of a hat.

                                          Comment


                                            Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                                            I just can't see how it can grow with the constraints? There's a limit on the transaction speed, and the energy use is ginormous and growing?

                                            100k is based more on hope than any measurement of it's intrinsic value.
                                            The issue isn't technically speed of transactions. Visa does not have a fast transaction speed, it has trust. Hence our accounts being full of pending transactions. Transactions are actually carried out at a later date in bulk rather than when people buy things. Bitcoin would easily have the same if adopted and used in a trusted network.

                                            The main issue is amount of transactions possible, which is a bit different than speed. The scaling is being looked at by a lot of people and nobody knows what form it will take, if another coin solved that and bitcoin could not it would crash, however this is just a technological challenge that I don't actually see being an issue barring things in the future. The lightning network is about to be realised and that will just be the beginning.

                                            The actual problems/threats for Bitcoin are outside interests regulating and competing coins.

                                            Comment


                                              Originally posted by Tar.Aldarion View Post
                                              The issue isn't technically speed of transactions. Visa does not have a fast transaction speed, it has trust. Hence our accounts being full of pending transactions. Transactions are actually carried out at a later date in bulk rather than when people buy things. Bitcoin would easily have the same if adopted and used in a trusted network.

                                              The main issue is amount of transactions possible, which is a bit different than speed. The scaling is being looked at by a lot of people and nobody knows what form it will take, if another coin solved that and bitcoin could not it would crash, however this is just a technological challenge that I don't actually see being an issue barring things in the future. The lightning network is about to be realised and that will just be the beginning.

                                              The actual problems/threats for Bitcoin are outside interests regulating and competing coins.
                                              I just seems far more likely that someone else will solve that and take over. Sure, Bitcoin's got brand name awareness but so did bebo.

                                              Comment


                                                My lay man interpretations of bt from afar

                                                Everyone who invested in Bitcoin has an interest in its growth

                                                Bitcoin potential appreciation to a large % of actual currency in the world (60 trillion?)
                                                could cause a huge collapse if a panic or run on bitcoin occurs.

                                                Is the price of fucking RAM skyrocketing cause the profitability of mining bitcoin, cause this time last year RAM was peanuts,
                                                ( Maybe il invest in metals used in computers)

                                                Comment


                                                  Originally posted by poprock View Post
                                                  Is the price of fucking RAM skyrocketing cause the profitability of mining bitcoin, cause this time last year RAM was peanuts,
                                                  ( Maybe il invest in metals used in computers)
                                                  No, but high end graphics cards are selling like hot cakes, because the calcs for mining bitcoins are very similar as those for rendering 3D images. Investing in Nvidia and/or AMD stock would be the correct approach here, I guess?
                                                  "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                                  Comment


                                                    Originally posted by AndyFatBastard View Post
                                                    No, but high end graphics cards are selling like hot cakes, because the calcs for mining bitcoins are very similar as those for rendering 3D images. Investing in Nvidia and/or AMD stock would be the correct approach here, I guess?
                                                    Thanks, somethings going crazy anyway, at least investing in something like this seems safer as not reliant on one customer

                                                    Comment


                                                      Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                                      Pretty much as Iago said. All of our accounts offset the mortgage.
                                                      So say there was 200k owing, and savings of 50k. You can pay it off if leaving it sitting in savings. Either way you only pay interest on 150k


                                                      (Numbers made up entirely, sadly )
                                                      It basically means you are getting an effective ~6%p.a. gross return on low risk cash and enjoying immediate access to same. You consider this to be shit and are looking for an alternative higher yielding investment. Is that a fair summary?

                                                      In the interests of the nice little discussion that has developed here, is there any chance you'd take a guess at what level of return you're aiming for and how much downside risk you are prepared to take on a one year investment horizon?
                                                      ‘IF YOU had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.” Genghis Khan

                                                      Comment


                                                        BTC has a calculable value that is the price of producing the next coin. Depending on where you are and what your existing set up is that is currently in the $1K - $3K range.

                                                        Originally posted by Tara
                                                        The issue isn't technically speed of transactions. Visa does not have a fast transaction speed, it has trust. Hence our accounts being full of pending transactions. Transactions are actually carried out at a later date in bulk rather than when people buy things.
                                                        Thats not quite true, payments over Visa and MC networks are authorised instantly, batch processing is done in daily batches for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with transaction speed.

                                                        Originally posted by Tara
                                                        Bitcoin would easily have the same if adopted and used in a trusted network.
                                                        Can you really process a BTC transaction online in <500Ms ?
                                                        Turning millions into thousands

                                                        Comment


                                                          Mail from Revolut there that I can trade bitcoin. Gotta be worth another few hundred!

                                                          Comment


                                                            Well sat
                                                            Turning millions into thousands

                                                            Comment


                                                              Think I'll jump off the rollercoaster soon. Worth 7.4k now. That could buy a lot of things I don't need. Would be fairly sick if it took a nosedive.

                                                              Comment


                                                                Originally posted by zuutroy View Post
                                                                Think I'll jump off the rollercoaster soon. Worth 7.4k now. That could buy a lot of things I don't need. Would be fairly sick if it took a nosedive.
                                                                Doesn't have to be all or nothing. Chop it up or maybe just leave your profit and freeroll.
                                                                Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

                                                                Comment


                                                                  It's basically all profit...was 450 when I got it!

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                                                                    I just can't see how it can grow with the constraints? There's a limit on the transaction speed, and the energy use is ginormous and growing?

                                                                    100k is based more on hope than any measurement of it's intrinsic value.
                                                                    Think of it as a gold substitute. Similar as a scarce arbitrary store of wealth with mining costs. Better because it's decentralised and liquid. Gold rush baby.
                                                                    Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      One day Zuut will cash out and will buy a factory of bose headphones

                                                                      Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post
                                                                      BTC has a calculable value that is the price of producing the next coin. Depending on where you are and what your existing set up is that is currently in the $1K - $3K range.


                                                                      Thats not quite true, payments over Visa and MC networks are authorised instantly, batch processing is done in daily batches for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with transaction speed.


                                                                      Can you really process a BTC transaction online in <500Ms ?
                                                                      It's just a matter of what the user sees, not the engineering. In a trusted system all you need to do is initiate the transaction and it doesn't matter when it actually happens after that. It's not like we wait around for a coffee for visa to go through a day later, same with BTC. I don't see why they couldn't be less thant 500ms, do you?

                                                                      Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                                                                      Mail from Revolut there that I can trade bitcoin. Gotta be worth another few hundred!
                                                                      It's blasted through 16k and is nearing 17k.

                                                                      Got that email too, looking into it: it's a bit fee heavy and has some drawbacks. Can only send to other revolut users, 1.5% fee and don't get your own keys. Grand for ease of use though!
                                                                      Last edited by Tar.Aldarion; 07-12-17, 15:54.

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        Originally posted by zuutroy View Post
                                                                        It's basically all profit...was 450 when I got it!
                                                                        Also in since $450 and continuing to accumulate BTC

                                                                        Comment


                                                                          Revolut now down for me - can't log in - same for anyone else? Am guessing they may be getting hammered in terms of new users.


                                                                          Comment


                                                                            Originally posted by ionapaul View Post
                                                                            Revolut now down for me - can't log in - same for anyone else? Am guessing they may be getting hammered in terms of new users.
                                                                            Just updated and can log in fine, see crypto there. For standard users you need to invite three friends to revolut to use it currently. That will handle the initial demand for them. It also is only for EEA customers.
                                                                            Last edited by Tar.Aldarion; 07-12-17, 16:01.

                                                                            Comment


                                                                              Higher. Higher. Higher.

                                                                              Comment


                                                                                trading at 16,990 now, that's 5k in 24 hours.
                                                                                Last edited by Tar.Aldarion; 07-12-17, 16:06.

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                  The balls to hold until right time with bitcoin can be summed up as follows


                                                                                  Discover the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories, viral videos, and so much more from users like Craicerjack.
                                                                                  Last edited by poprock; 07-12-17, 16:09. Reason: too stupid to embed now :(

                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                    Lol, the entire premise of block chain is the idea of not requiring trust. Goodwill can't be quantified. Block chain moves that good will away.

                                                                                    Bitcoins transaction speed is a problem. Solving it by moving to trusted parties is directly in contention with the primary purpose of the whole thing!

                                                                                    Litecoin has already improved upon it. AN other will probably win overall at some stage in terms ofbeing a useful currency.

                                                                                    Bitcoin is a viable and useful commodity, but not sure it can be a transact able currency without breaking part of its original design.

                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                      hit 17k now.

                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                        Originally posted by Wombatman View Post
                                                                                        Think of it as a gold substitute. Similar as a scarce arbitrary store of wealth with mining costs. Better because it's decentralised and liquid. Gold rush baby.
                                                                                        Gold has uses though. And has a long history of being a store of wealth. Bitcoin is...?...backed by miners that can switch to a superior chain instantly?

                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                          Originally posted by Tar.Aldarion View Post
                                                                                          hit 17k now.
                                                                                          This reminds me of 1999 . Sitting at my desk watchng all the internets go green . Great buzz , the reds were no fun though. For a short time there Rodney I was a...

                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                            18.5k now, I just went to show somebody how to buy and it went up a 1.5k while the tab was open

                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                              Hit 19k now LMAO. We have lost it in the office

                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                Where are you seeing this? Everywhere I look says 17.5k

                                                                                                Comment


                                                                                                  Crazy to be buying at these kind of prices.... there is a correction well overdue and lots of people will be burned no doubt....

                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                    Originally posted by alocon View Post
                                                                                                    Crazy to be buying at these kind of prices.... there is a correction well overdue and lots of people will be burned no doubt....
                                                                                                    I agree, but said so at £4,500 too

                                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                                      Originally posted by zuutroy View Post
                                                                                                      Where are you seeing this? Everywhere I look says 17.5k
                                                                                                      Back down to 17.5-18ish now, I look at it directly on exchanges like gdax where people are buying/selling in real time. https://www.gdax.com/trade/BTC-USD

                                                                                                      Anything else is way behind the price.

                                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                                        Originally posted by zuutroy View Post
                                                                                                        Where are you seeing this? Everywhere I look says 17.5k
                                                                                                        GDAX miles out of alignment with rest of exchanges. Feed seems to have died, then normalised.

                                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                                          Swongs. 19.5 back to 16k.

                                                                                                          Comment


                                                                                                            Was crazy there, bit of back to normality now around 17k

                                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                                              Someone's tulip algorithm in overdrive there

                                                                                                              Comment


                                                                                                                Where do people turn it back to €? I had been using localbitcoins.com.

                                                                                                                Comment


                                                                                                                  Originally posted by zuutroy View Post
                                                                                                                  Where do people turn it back to €? I had been using localbitcoins.com.
                                                                                                                  The price must change dramatically by the time you meet up with somebody? Or send a bank transfer, how does it work?

                                                                                                                  Comment


                                                                                                                    Never realised the order book was so thin, no wonder it's moving so much. The minimum contract for the futures trading is 5 BTC, massive difference to what's on the exchanges.
                                                                                                                    Last edited by Denny Crane; 07-12-17, 17:00.

                                                                                                                    Comment


                                                                                                                      Originally posted by Denny Crane View Post
                                                                                                                      Never realised the order book was thin, no wonder it's moving so much. The minimum contract for the futures trading is 5 BTC, massive difference to what's on the exchanges.


                                                                                                                      Good live order book info

                                                                                                                      Comment


                                                                                                                        Originally posted by Tar.Aldarion View Post
                                                                                                                        The price must change dramatically by the time you meet up with somebody? Or send a bank transfer, how does it work?
                                                                                                                        I used to cash out by SEPA transfer. Price is locked in when you make the deal.

                                                                                                                        Comment


                                                                                                                          Originally posted by Emmet View Post
                                                                                                                          www.bitcoinity.org/markets/coinbase/USD

                                                                                                                          Good live order book info


                                                                                                                          Anything like gdax for all the exchanges?

                                                                                                                          Last edited by Denny Crane; 07-12-17, 17:13.

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