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    Weird hand from Nottingham

    Raise under the gun to 1.6k at the 600-300 level from guy with 48 k behind. He has been involved in lots of pots and is running very well. Doesn't seem capable of opening weak in that spot. Strikes me as a "weekend warrior" type player. Was in his thirties and i saw him walking around with his wife at the break which further cemented that read. Does a fair bit of talk at the table.

    Anyway folds around to me in the small blind and see 77. As im considering, the big blind thinks I've folded and folds k2 face up and villain flips over aq off. Floors called and ruling is hand continues with his cards face up. I've 50k ish. What should i do?

    #2
    insta shove
    Turning millions into thousands

    Comment


      #3
      Strange situation, I raise and call his probable 'shove out of frustration'
      Trying to not cause trouble since 1983

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post
        insta shove
        Don't do this, he will call and you negate the advantage you have gained

        Comment


          #5
          all insta.

          77 beats AQ any day,you just gotta wi you race if he calls of course
          inform yourself in forum with others

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            #6
            just call and then bet the flop
            twitter
            moneybookers

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Richie Lawlor View Post
              Don't do this, he will call and you negate the advantage you have gained
              This Villain won't call, but I see what you mean. nothing wrong with calling and taking it on the flop.
              Turning millions into thousands

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by jack90210 View Post
                Raise under the gun to 1.6k at the 600-300 level from guy with 48 k behind. He has been involved in lots of pots and is running very well. Doesn't seem capable of opening weak in that spot. Strikes me as a "weekend warrior" type player. Was in his thirties and i saw him walking around with his wife at the break which further cemented that read. Does a fair bit of talk at the table.

                Anyway folds around to me in the small blind and see 77. As im considering, the big blind thinks I've folded and folds k2 face up and villain flips over aq off. Floors called and ruling is hand continues with his cards face up. I've 50k ish. What should i do?
                did the td also rule that villian can only call your bets and is not allowed raise u on any street

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by dwarf View Post
                  did the td also rule that villian can only call your bets and is not allowed raise u on any street
                  No. Hand plays as normal.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Call and always bink the 7,A,Q flop.

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                      #11
                      calling, why would we shove?
                      https://twitter.com/#!/PadraigONeill89

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                        #12
                        raise to 5k

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                          #13
                          I kinda like a minraise here tbh, or something like that.

                          Or what Chris said.
                          Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by BallymoreChris View Post
                            just call and then bet the flop
                            this for me every day of the week!!... no advantage in shipping anyway, or betting..as he calls both options!! so advantage lies with the call..bet flop!!

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by TommyGunne View Post
                              I kinda like a minraise here tbh, or something like that.

                              Or what Chris said.
                              i think a minraise to 5k raise here, i just want him to put more chips in and have to play a flop with us when we have this obv huge edge, dont like the flat really, its not that bad but just prefer raise for reasons mentioned

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                                #16
                                think he can call on flop cant raise but on turn and river its normal play,just flat caus u know what he has and play it from there

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                                  #17
                                  Surely our aim is to get some chips in pre?

                                  I dunno the odds on him hitting only the flop but surely that's where our edge is? If he misses then we take it from there.
                                  Trying to not cause trouble since 1983

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Doesn't seem to consensus on the right line but did raise to 4.5k. He took this as an attack on his manhood lept up and asked did i want to go to war and shipped it all. So sick. Had to fold. Think the call and bet flop was the best line. Was pretty sick that i couldn't win even when i could see his cards! Everyone at the table agreed i would have had fold anything up to jacks. So pretty ballsy move from the guy.

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                                      #19
                                      if we raise villain ships and we give up our edge in a 50/50 spot. I do what chris says - we may even get value betting at a dud flop

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                                        #20
                                        lol I read souls

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                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by jack90210 View Post
                                          Doesn't seem to consensus on the right line but did raise to 4.5k. He took this as an attack on his manhood lept up and asked did i want to go to war and shipped it all. So sick. Had to fold. Think the call and bet flop was the best line. Was pretty sick that i couldn't win even when i could see his cards! Everyone at the table agreed i would have had fold anything up to jacks. So pretty ballsy move from the guy.
                                          Originally posted by Ramiriquez View Post
                                          Strange situation, I raise and call his probable 'shove out of frustration'
                                          I'm calling
                                          Trying to not cause trouble since 1983

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                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Ramiriquez View Post
                                            I'm calling
                                            well you shouldn't

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                                              #23
                                              Why after he raises shouldnt he call?

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                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                                                well you shouldn't
                                                with circa 10% my stack in as slight fav, I'm calling
                                                Trying to not cause trouble since 1983

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Am I missing something here lads, It's a pretty clear flat call. Raising is terribad aswell. You have such a huge advantage in this spot, make the most of it.

                                                  Why the fk are people advocating a shove? That's retarded.


                                                  Edit:I just read back and I posted before reading the result btw, I thought it was a nobrainer, it can obv be different while your at the table and in a hand though!
                                                  Last edited by dannydiamond; 16-02-11, 00:24.
                                                  We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then is not an act, but a habit.

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                                                    #26
                                                    sorry Il rephrase that - unless I felt that I didnt have an edge in the tournament I wouldnt call off 50bb's on a flip. I think I could build a stack just as easily without risking my tournament at this point

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                                                      #27
                                                      How are you not calling this off here? This is a really clearcut one. You make a lot of edge here calling the shove. I would also be surprised if hero doesn't have a good bit less than villain, which makes it even more fistpumpy.

                                                      On the plus side the other guy is clearly retarded.
                                                      Foldaramus et foldarabimus

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                                                        #28
                                                        It was a total random spot for me so do want to learn from it. Reason i raised is to build the pot where i have a huge edge or just take it down right there. Didn't think he would ever shove. Call though is the right play though i think. Surely its an easy fold when he shove though when its still so deep?

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                                                          #29
                                                          i need to play better

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                                                            #30
                                                            Id just call pre smile and value town him

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                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by dannydiamond View Post
                                                              Am I missing something here lads, It's a pretty clear flat call. Raising is terribad aswell. You have such a huge advantage in this spot, make the most of it.

                                                              Why the fk are people advocating a shove? That's retarded.


                                                              Edit:I just read back and I posted before reading the result btw, I thought it was a nobrainer, it can obv be different while your at the table and in a hand though!
                                                              I advocated a raise with a view to calling a shove. I would expect villain to get frustrated/angry in this situation as I said earlier and do exactly as he did.
                                                              Trying to not cause trouble since 1983

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                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by jack90210 View Post

                                                                Strikes me as a "weekend warrior" type player.
                                                                Originally posted by jack90210 View Post

                                                                So sick. Had to fold.


                                                                Everyone at the table agreed i would have had fold anything up to jacks. So pretty ballsy move from the guy.

                                                                I'm not sure which of these three lines is the funniest. Comedy Gold!

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                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by smoothcall View Post
                                                                  I'm not sure which of these three lines is the funniest. Comedy Gold!
                                                                  So your calling?

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                                                                    #34
                                                                    would you call with JJ?

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                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by Ramiriquez View Post
                                                                      I advocated a raise with a view to calling a shove. I would expect villain to get frustrated/angry in this situation as I said earlier and do exactly as he did.

                                                                      You're giving up a massive advantage by opening up the betting.

                                                                      Why would you want to do that?
                                                                      Why would you want to race when you are in such a strong position in the hand already?

                                                                      If I was the villian and had my shove called in that spot, I wouldn't be able to believe my luck.
                                                                      Last edited by dannydiamond; 16-02-11, 00:51.
                                                                      We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then is not an act, but a habit.

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by smoothcall View Post
                                                                        would you call with JJ?
                                                                        Well its only one percent in the difference so clearly not.

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                                                                          #37
                                                                          i really really cant understand people so against raising in this spot,

                                                                          his shove is retarded, but when he does shove its a call for me

                                                                          he flats your more likely to be ahead on flop and might even get him to call with his a high when you c bet when he misses, seems capable of this since he shoved pre

                                                                          he folds (and alot of villians would in this spot, me included) and you put the 2.5k on top your stack

                                                                          your simply getting him to put more chips in the middle in a spot where you have better expectation,simple as.

                                                                          i dont think flatting is horrible but in a spot where we dont know what he is going to do if we raise,and based on what what i said i think above i think all his options after that are shitty, id be livid if i flatted and he flopped an A or whatever
                                                                          Last edited by Kenny; 16-02-11, 00:55.

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                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by dannydiamond View Post
                                                                            You're giving up a massive advantage by opening up the betting.

                                                                            Why would you want to do that?
                                                                            Why would you want to race when you are in such a strong position in the hand already?

                                                                            If I was the villian and had my shove called in that spot, I wouldn't be able to believe my luck.
                                                                            Originally posted by Kenny View Post
                                                                            i really really cant understand people so against raising in this spot,

                                                                            his shove is retarded, but when he does shove its a call for me

                                                                            he flats your more likely to be ahead on flop and might even get him to call with his a high when you c bet when he misses, seems capable of this since he shoved pre

                                                                            he folds (and alot of villians would in this spot, me included) and you put the 2.5k on top your stack

                                                                            your simply getting him to put more chips in the middle in a spot where you have better expectation,simple as.

                                                                            i dont think flatting is horrible but in a spot where we dont know what he is going to do if we raise,and based on what what i said i think above i think all his options after that are shitty, id be livid if i flatted and he flopped an A or whatever
                                                                            said much more eloquently than I would have
                                                                            Trying to not cause trouble since 1983

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                                                                              #39
                                                                              You shouldnt reraise pre but once you do its a snap call ...

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                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by jack90210 View Post
                                                                                Well its only one percent in the difference so clearly not.
                                                                                well at least you see that, so you can see why I was loling at that bit.

                                                                                I don't mind your raise, but if you raise you have to snap call. your raising because you know you have marginally the best hand and your bringing in fold equity by raising. I guess your reasoning for folding is that you can outplay them later?

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                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  I really thought this would be a simple fold with how deep i am and far too early to take a huge flip. I would assume i have a lot better spots to come.

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                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by jack90210 View Post
                                                                                    I really thought this would be a simple fold with how deep i am and far too early to take a huge flip. I would assume i have a lot better spots to come.
                                                                                    hmm assumed the answer would be something like that.

                                                                                    There is now 10k dead in the pot, so your getting a good price to flip. Basically when you raise you should know what your doing if he shoves, and if your going to fold you shouldnt have raised. By doing what you did it's giving up a good spot, so who knows how many more of these magical spots are available.

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                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by smoothcall View Post
                                                                                      Basically when you raise you should know what your doing if he shoves, and if your going to fold you shouldnt have raised. By doing what you did it's giving up a good spot
                                                                                      This sums it up perfectly.
                                                                                      We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then is not an act, but a habit.

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                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by jack90210 View Post
                                                                                        I really thought this would be a simple fold with how deep i am and far too early to take a huge flip. I would assume i have a lot better spots to come.
                                                                                        When people say they were in a big flip they didn't know it was going to be a big flip until the action played out.

                                                                                        You know you are in a big flip....and you are ahead. If I raise here I am snapcalling a shove.
                                                                                        I wouldn't have raised though, much better chance of getting some of his tiltchips without any risk whatsoever.

                                                                                        You are essentially a "superuser" in this hand and you gave up your advantage by raising.

                                                                                        If I could see my opponents cards in every hand I played in I would never re-raise unless I was an overwhelming favourite and I thought he would get it in. Ok it's a one-off situation but the principle is the same.

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                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          reverse of this happened to me 1st time i played main @ wsop. day4 pre bubble, sum guys called clock on me after literally 10secs, he wasnt even in the hand, i called him a donut...td came over to ban me an orbit of the table,i refused to leave..

                                                                                          He consulted with higher up td who said "Sir u have to leave for an orbit for personally abusing another player"...i told him i didnt abuse him...he said "you called seat 8 a donkey" i told him i called him a donut, which was a term of enderment in Ireland...they were momentarily stunned, then laughed and just gave me warning, i turned around in seat and action was on me in sb,with table waiting on me, i look down at aq and raised. bb folds and i show him the aq, cause i planned on robbing him blind as bubble approached...

                                                                                          Then i notice a limper in mid pos, both Tds are still watching this and with great delight tell me ill be fined my orbit of table now, but can proceed with hand....I know that if that limper repopped me then that id have done the exact same and jammed the whole farm back at him, instead he flatted....alllowing me to see only 3 cards, i whiff, he bets and takes down the pot....easy + best way to play it imo

                                                                                          but ya agree with smoothcall there, u gotta have a plan here + if ur raising, cant raise fold. Your just creating better odds for you to make the call and then folding?

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                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            Originally posted by Midnitekowby View Post

                                                                                            He consulted with higher up td who said "Sir u have to leave for an orbit for personally abusing another player"...i told him i didnt abuse him...he said "you called seat 8 a donkey" i told him i called him a donut, which was a term of enderment in Ireland...they were momentarily stunned, then laughed and just gave me warning,
                                                                                            Very well played.
                                                                                            We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then is not an act, but a habit.

                                                                                            Comment


                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              Originally posted by dannydiamond View Post
                                                                                              Very well played.
                                                                                              ya, they got me in the end though, was literally next hand i exposed aq, def for the best though as steam was coming outta my ears with this clock callin punk, grabbed a cuppa and chilled right out

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                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                Originally posted by jack90210 View Post
                                                                                                It was a total random spot for me so do want to learn from it. Reason i raised is to build the pot where i have a huge edge or just take it down right there. Didn't think he would ever shove. Call though is the right play though i think. Surely its an easy fold when he shove though when its still so deep?
                                                                                                Raising with the intention to fold makes no sense in this spot.
                                                                                                What did you think would happen? The vilain flats sees if he hits? (knowing that he can only really lose chips post flop)

                                                                                                I only raise to snap a shove, so AK and QQ+ are all i raise.

                                                                                                We have a slight edge with 77, and when he shoves its still hugely EV, but the edge of taking a flop and evaluating is way bigger. It allows you to get away when he hits, value bet his misses, and reverso the flops where you both hit.

                                                                                                Originally posted by jack90210 View Post
                                                                                                I really thought this would be a simple fold with how deep i am and far too early to take a huge flip. I would assume i have a lot better spots to come.
                                                                                                This concept of "a better spot" later is silly. It's true that at some point with a good structure, you'll hit the nuts, and can get some chips in with 100% equity. But, 100% equity is alot more valuable if you were taking every edge earlier and now have a bigger stack.

                                                                                                I'm under no illusions that you don't bust out a lot by calling the shove. But you simply can't afford to pass this spot. nobody can, no matter what they think their edge is.
                                                                                                Last edited by Mellor; 16-02-11, 03:31.

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                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  Thread is in bits.

                                                                                                  Amazed you 3bet/folded pre when you could see his cards.
                                                                                                  Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                                                                                                  I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                                                                                                  None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

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                                                                                                    #50
                                                                                                    Raise folding horrible here, if you raise you have to be prepared to call the shove. This is an unusual spot but I'd bet that if it did arise 100 times, the average live donk villain shoves on you more than half the time. I am an advocate of the "avoid marginal edges for your whole stack or big chunk in soft fields and deep structures" school of thought but this is simply too big of an edge to pass up unless you're playing schoolchildren who are unclear on the rules and who shout out their hand to you every time.

                                                                                                    Flat call pre is much better.
                                                                                                    My poker blog - Doking around in cyberspace

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                                                                                                      #51
                                                                                                      Originally posted by Midnitekowby View Post
                                                                                                      reverse of this happened to me 1st time i played main @ wsop. day4 pre bubble, sum guys called clock on me after literally 10secs, he wasnt even in the hand, i called him a donut...td came over to ban me an orbit of the table,i refused to leave..

                                                                                                      He consulted with higher up td who said "Sir u have to leave for an orbit for personally abusing another player"...i told him i didnt abuse him...he said "you called seat 8 a donkey" i told him i called him a donut, which was a term of enderment in Ireland...they were momentarily stunned, then laughed and just gave me warning?

                                                                                                      actually lol
                                                                                                      twitter
                                                                                                      moneybookers

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                                                                                                        #52
                                                                                                        Option 1: Fold
                                                                                                        EV = 0

                                                                                                        Option 2: Call and bet if he misses the flop
                                                                                                        He will hit flop about 36% of the time (right?) – assume he bets and we fold: -1300 x 36% = -468
                                                                                                        We will bet 64% of the time and he will mostly fold: +2400 x 64% = +1536
                                                                                                        Sometimes he will call when he misses the flop – that will add some value to this option. Ignoring that value, the EV of this option is +1068

                                                                                                        Option 3: Raise to 5k
                                                                                                        Have to guess some probabilities here – lets say he will fold / call / push 1/3rd of the time each
                                                                                                        If he folds: +2400/3 = 800
                                                                                                        If he calls, we are back to the same scenario as 1: -4700 x 36% = -1692, +5800 x 64% = 3712 => +2020 if he calls.... divide by 3 for probability that he calls = 673 (plus of course more if we think he will still call out of stubbornness)
                                                                                                        If he pushes and we fold that’s -4700 / 3 = -1567 which brings the total EV of raising into negative territory (conclusion based on this: do not raise if you won’t call a shove!)
                                                                                                        If he pushes and we call, we are 55% to take the lot: -47700 x 45%, +46400 x 55% = 4055... divide by 3 = 1352
                                                                                                        Overall EV of raising: +2825

                                                                                                        Overall conclusion... go ahead and raise unless you suffer from TLS (which you do ) (in which case call)

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                                                                                                          #53
                                                                                                          Originally posted by jack90210 View Post
                                                                                                          I really thought this would be a simple fold with how deep i am and far too early to take a huge flip. I would assume i have a lot better spots to come.
                                                                                                          There was a great article by one of the full tilt pros a long time ago about folding QQ to an exposed AK in the first hand of a deepstack tournament expecting to find "better spots" later on.

                                                                                                          I can't remember the exact maths/logic, but basically the fold and wait line was pretty well shown to be a fallacy.

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                                                                                                            #54
                                                                                                            This should in the future be known as he 'Russ Hamilton Situation'

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                                                                                                              #55
                                                                                                              maximise the advantage you've gained..... flat it and pump the flop.....
                                                                                                              D15 CASINO, Mulhuddart Village (opp Blanchardstown shopping centre)

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                                                                                                                #56
                                                                                                                Delighted some one else did the numbers on it , i saw this last night and was going to do it today.

                                                                                                                The exposed K2 hasnt been mentioned much but this takes a slight bit of equity from the AQ's straight and wheel draw

                                                                                                                I would also have just flatted pre fwiw

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                                                                                                                  #57
                                                                                                                  Originally posted by Midnitekowby View Post
                                                                                                                  reverse of this happened to me 1st time i played main @ wsop. day4 pre bubble, sum guys called clock on me after literally 10secs, he wasnt even in the hand, i called him a donut...td came over to ban me an orbit of the table,i refused to leave..

                                                                                                                  He consulted with higher up td who said "Sir u have to leave for an orbit for personally abusing another player"...i told him i didnt abuse him...he said "you called seat 8 a donkey" i told him i called him a donut, which was a term of enderment in Ireland...they were momentarily stunned, then laughed and just gave me warning, i turned around in seat and action was on me in sb,with table waiting on me, i look down at aq and raised. bb folds and i show him the aq, cause i planned on robbing him blind as bubble approached...

                                                                                                                  Then i notice a limper in mid pos, both Tds are still watching this and with great delight tell me ill be fined my orbit of table now, but can proceed with hand....I know that if that limper repopped me then that id have done the exact same and jammed the whole farm back at him, instead he flatted....alllowing me to see only 3 cards, i whiff, he bets and takes down the pot....easy + best way to play it imo

                                                                                                                  but ya agree with smoothcall there, u gotta have a plan here + if ur raising, cant raise fold. Your just creating better odds for you to make the call and then folding?
                                                                                                                  Thats just Gold

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                                                                                                                    #58
                                                                                                                    I'd like to end it there and shove on him. Would really tilt him.

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                                                                                                                      #59
                                                                                                                      Originally posted by Mary Harney View Post
                                                                                                                      I'd like to end it there and shove on him. Would really tilt him.
                                                                                                                      Yeah sorry meant to do an option 4...

                                                                                                                      You shove and he folds (say) 50% and calls 50%
                                                                                                                      Fold: +2400
                                                                                                                      Call: -46700 x 45%, 48800 x 55% = +5825
                                                                                                                      Overall: +4112


                                                                                                                      Shove therefore is >EV compared to raising but is obviously also ++ variance

                                                                                                                      This is all very read dependant, mostly your read on what a weekend warrior with a wife will do when you raise / push


                                                                                                                      ... hang on no way he is 50% to call a shove so EV is overstated... insert own figures!
                                                                                                                      Last edited by EssEll; 16-02-11, 15:19. Reason: hang on no way...

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                                                                                                                        #60
                                                                                                                        Originally posted by Keane View Post
                                                                                                                        There was a great article by one of the full tilt pros a long time ago about folding QQ to an exposed AK in the first hand of a deepstack tournament expecting to find "better spots" later on.

                                                                                                                        I can't remember the exact maths/logic, but basically the fold and wait line was pretty well shown to be a fallacy.
                                                                                                                        Yeah, its a good article. I remember reading it pretty much thinking that this is solid proof for taking every edge.
                                                                                                                        It also show the difference in percieved edge and actual edge.


                                                                                                                        EssEll,
                                                                                                                        you have the right idea in working out the +EV with figures. But you've made a mistake or two, so your +EV numbers are misleading.

                                                                                                                        Firstly there is no point it getting really specific with % calcs, and chip EV if we have to very roughly estimate his fold/call/raise action. I see you noticed this for option 4, but it also applies to option 3, I really doubt he calls/pushes/folds in equal amounts. Given we know his cards, he is push or fold mode.

                                                                                                                        You also ignored the flops were we hit a 7, and he also hits. This is the real value of the situation. He is clearly not very good, and a bit of a loose cannon and getting value won't be hard.

                                                                                                                        Doing fully accurate calcs wouldn't be impossible, but the time spend on it is a waste. It's such a rare situation. You are better off knowing the reasons that taking the flop is simply best, and that raise folding is very bad.

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