Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Opinions cash plo - can I ever justify a call post flop?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Opinions cash plo - can I ever justify a call post flop?

    Please bear with me on the hand history details as this is my maiden voyage.
    This is a hand of 1-2 plo cash played out in the early hours of Sunday morning last at the d4 deepstack event.
    9 handed - approx stacks of players involved in hand
    seat 2 villain1 535
    seat 4 hero 2200
    seat 8 villain2 235

    Button is on seat 1. There is 80 in the pre-flop pot after a raise from the semi blind villain 1 and calls from the two players outlined above. I can't remember exact details but hero and villain2 have both limped as have others and villain1 has been able to max raise to 25. Villain1, a young german, is playing tight agressive, knows the game and hasn't made too many mistakes while villain2 is the worse for wear, hasn't been at the table long and is already chasing losses. Hero is playing loose agressive as its that time of the morning when this strategy is paying off.

    Hero calls pre flop with Q 3 6 7 o/s 1 club.
    Flop comes Qc 4h 5c.
    Hero has top pair and a wrap 2 to the 8, bets out max 80.
    Villain2 snaps all-in 210.
    Villain1 snaps all-in 505.
    Decision for hero is call of 425 into a total pot of 1220, main pot 630 and side pot of 590.
    Basically I figure I'm getting pot odds of 2/1 to my call with potentially 17 outs on both remaining cards. Thats 2,3,6,7,8 x 4 less 3,6,7 in my hand.
    My best case scenario, however unlikely, is that both villains have trips with no flush draws or re-draws in which case the call is a no-brainer.
    My worst case scenario is that villain1 has the nut flush draw with aces,villain2 has trips and both have some of my outs.
    Potentially a flush draw out there and both villains having a 2,3,6,7 or 8 reduces my outs to 11 outs on both remaining cards.

    I'm just not sure how to factor in the odds of the flush or house arriving aginst my own potential draw.
    Can I ever make this call? Opinions please.
    Last edited by GingerMilla; 08-02-11, 02:38.
    "Let your boat of life be light, packed with only what you need - a homely home and simple pleasures, one or two friends, worth the name, someone to love and someone to love you, a cat, a dog, and a pipe or two, enough to eat and enough to wear, and a little more than enough to drink; for thirst is a dangerous thing." Jerome K. Jerome Three men in a Boat

    #2
    Sorry I can't change threat title.
    It should read 'can i ever justify a call post flop' ?
    "Let your boat of life be light, packed with only what you need - a homely home and simple pleasures, one or two friends, worth the name, someone to love and someone to love you, a cat, a dog, and a pipe or two, enough to eat and enough to wear, and a little more than enough to drink; for thirst is a dangerous thing." Jerome K. Jerome Three men in a Boat

    Comment


      #3
      Easy call since you bet the flop imo and considering villains stack sizes.
      Some bag of spanners pre flop you have though
      like with that hand what do you expect to flop?
      i think you have hit the flop hard shame theres alush draw there but i get it any regardless
      considering you have a 2.2k stack im sure yoru winning in game
      when im winning i usually make looser calls so i call.

      Comment


        #4
        Snap call

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by SICKPUPPY View Post
          Easy call since you bet the flop imo and considering villains stack sizes.
          Some bag of spanners pre flop you have though
          like with that hand what do you expect to flop?
          i think you have hit the flop hard shame theres alush draw there but i get it any regardless
          considering you have a 2.2k stack im sure yoru winning in game
          when im winning i usually make looser calls so i call.
          Ok thanks Mick. I was absolutely berated for the call by a couple of players at the table.
          Its just bothered me since. They reckoned I couldn't call with the flush draw out there.
          "Let your boat of life be light, packed with only what you need - a homely home and simple pleasures, one or two friends, worth the name, someone to love and someone to love you, a cat, a dog, and a pipe or two, enough to eat and enough to wear, and a little more than enough to drink; for thirst is a dangerous thing." Jerome K. Jerome Three men in a Boat

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by GingerMilla View Post
            Sorry I can't change threat title.
            It should read 'can i ever justify a call post flop' ?
            do you mean pre flop?
            id fold pre flop unless was hu againest some rock who i know has aces

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by GingerMilla View Post
              Ok thanks Mick. I was absolutely berated for the call by a couple of players at the table.
              Its just bothered me since. They reckoned I couldn't call with the flush draw out there.
              At this stage berating does not even register to me hope ya scooped.
              Wtf is it with people people are entitled to play any way they want.
              Should have told them to geta 2.2k stack and you might fold then but as there shortstacking busto donkeys you had to call
              and 500 euro really is small change to you buffoons.

              Comment


                #8
                Limping preflop was bad.
                Calling the pot raise was terrible. Just fold.

                There is no way you have 17 outs either

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                  Limping preflop was bad.
                  Calling the pot raise was terrible. Just fold.

                  There is no way you have 17 outs either
                  Thanks but I wasn't seeking an opinion on the pre flop play, which I accept you won't find recommended in many textbooks. After all my bad play leading up to the two all ins, can I make the final call of 425?

                  Potentially I have 17 outs here as Í outlined. Obviously though its fairly improbable.
                  "Let your boat of life be light, packed with only what you need - a homely home and simple pleasures, one or two friends, worth the name, someone to love and someone to love you, a cat, a dog, and a pipe or two, enough to eat and enough to wear, and a little more than enough to drink; for thirst is a dangerous thing." Jerome K. Jerome Three men in a Boat

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by GingerMilla View Post
                    Thanks but I wasn't seeking an opinion on the pre flop play, which I accept you won't find recommended in many textbooks. After all my bad play leading up to the two all ins, can I make the final call of 425?

                    Potentially I have 17 outs here as Í outlined. Obviously though its fairly improbable.
                    ill do an equity check say someone has 555 and other guy say nut flush draw and no other outs
                    based on someone having a set of 5s
                    other dude having nut flushdraw you are 33.8% to win this might go up or down a small bit if some have blockers to your straight
                    so even if you think your up againest a set and a flush draw get it in.
                    If at the table you know your equity % dont ever say it just say sure i had to gamble

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Flop is an instacall. You're going to have min 25% equity always pretty much and sometimes will be dominating lower wraps.

                      However, the bit "hero calls preflop with" is absolute misery. This is the dregs of PLO hands. Easy muck pre.
                      Looking for full or part time poker and betting writers. PM if interested.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Preflop is horrific. When you call pre with this sort of hand, what more are you hoping for on the flop? Surely now you are there you are gonna call off the rest of it.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          after callen pre flop ur after hitten the flop hard and think its a call, i wudnt b relying on 17 out as a 5 or 8 wud b scare card wit bigger strait draws out there and u needing to hit 2 win the pot cause ur prob up against top set v aces flush draw open ender,so theres a lot to dodge aswell

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Horrible pre flop as said above, but once you've hit this kind of flop not much point in giving up now just fasten ur seat belt.U say it was early morning and a pretty laggy game, never laggy enough to play this muck IMO. U should tighten up a bit and if this game was as u said u will get paid off when u pick up.
                            location green and yellow stretford end

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by GingerMilla View Post
                              Sorry I can't change threat title.
                              It should read 'can i ever justify a call post flop' ?
                              Fixed

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by GingerMilla View Post
                                Thanks but I wasn't seeking an opinion on the pre flop play, which I accept you won't find recommended in many textbooks. After all my bad play leading up to the two all ins, can I make the final call of 425?

                                Potentially I have 17 outs here as Í outlined. Obviously though its fairly improbable.
                                I understand that you are isolating the flop decision, but that's not really productive, and generally people comment on the whole hand. If you want them to or not. Even if you know pf is bad, you still did it. And if you think that's its profitable in this game, it isn't.


                                As for the flop decision, you have a reasonable amounf of equity still and the only way its going to be -EV is if you are up against some horrible combo of a set, the FD and a higher straight. But in reality you have about 33% of this, its a call.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                                  I understand that you are isolating the flop decision, but that's not really productive, and generally people comment on the whole hand. If you want them to or not. Even if you know pf is bad, you still did it. And if you think that's its profitable in this game, it isn't.


                                  As for the flop decision, you have a reasonable amounf of equity still and the only way its going to be -EV is if you are up against some horrible combo of a set, the FD and a higher straight. But in reality you have about 33% of this, its a call.
                                  Ok thanks for the comments. Basically I'm on my last round of the table here after a fairly profitable night and while the pre-flop call of 25 might be deemed somewhat reckless with the bag of spanners I'm holding, it would be a lot more reckless if I call down the final 425 post flop not having the equity share.

                                  I'm convinced villain1 has aces with clubs. But how often am I up against a similar wrap, with a club redraw? You are correct in this case on my equity share 32% vs villain1 45% and villain2 23%. See below.


                                  Hand odds calculation
                                  "Let your boat of life be light, packed with only what you need - a homely home and simple pleasures, one or two friends, worth the name, someone to love and someone to love you, a cat, a dog, and a pipe or two, enough to eat and enough to wear, and a little more than enough to drink; for thirst is a dangerous thing." Jerome K. Jerome Three men in a Boat

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by GingerMilla View Post
                                    Ok thanks for the comments. Basically I'm on my last round of the table here after a fairly profitable night and while the pre-flop call of 25 might be deemed somewhat reckless with the bag of spanners I'm holding, it would be a lot more reckless if I call down the final 425 post flop not having the equity share.
                                    lol

                                    there are no 'mights' here, it's pretty clear cut.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      i havent done the math but i definitely call here on a quick assessment.

                                      i mean you need around 25% equity and we can assume non-flush completing cards will scoop u the pot the vast majority of the time. ok we will be chopping sometimes and sometimes someone will be free rolling with a wrap and FD but opponents ranges will often consist of over pairs + FDs, NFDs, and sets, 2pairs type hands, wraps, pairs and wraps (live omaha) enough to make it a call i would imagine. Figuring out which villain's range is more likely to be a hand we're chopping with is probably important also. i think i would prefer if the side pot was from the less competent villain. On the other hand you may weight the more competent villian's (german dude) range more towards aces with NDF in which case ur outs will be scooping the side pot in full at least but i dont know how much thought or significance you can attach in this instance.

                                      my suspicion is if someone ran this through the propokertools thingy (i have never used this tool for omaha but understand how it would work from using pokerstove for No-limit) against typical ranges we can see in live omaha in your spot, your requirement of 25% equity makes the call satisfactorily +EV.

                                      as for pre-flop call. i dont mind it. i think you can call with a very wide range indeed if conditions (your skill level postf, opponents skill level(s) and tendencies, table tendencies e.g. likelihood of it being a limped pot etc etc, stack sizes of fish in the pot i.e. implied odds etc) are right. conditions may well have been.
                                      Last edited by bustamoves; 09-02-11, 00:44. Reason: typo

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        ignoring preflop play is sooooo ridiculous in this hand -anyone who thinks preflop is ok is just wrong simple as

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Getting involved with these holdings UTG can only lead to a tricky situation especially at a festival like this where there will always be messy multi way pots.

                                          Put yourself in a strong position by only going to war with genuine good starting hands or at the very least if your gonna be getting into multi way pots with these types of hands, do so from late position.

                                          Call now.


                                          This was a long winded way of telling you to fold pre.

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X