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Flop the world with 56s

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    Flop the world with 56s

    It's been a while since I've seen a hand here, so seeing as that's what we used to do, I'll stick one up that has been bothering me since last night that I think I played badly.

    This is from a €100fo on Winamax and it's a relatively deep table. I think I could have chosen to play every single street different. The opener is a fish and most of the hands would have been from smaller stakes tournaments as his avg buyin is only $17. I can't remember much from the other guy because i was playing 12+ tournaments, but he hasn't played many hands. I got a good run of cards at this table so if he's paying attention, he might have seen me in a few pots.

    €75/€150 No Limit Holdem
    Winamax
    9 Players
    Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

    Stacks:
    UTG KKick_ur_AAs (€19,082) 127bb
    UTG+1 Matslide (€17,860) 119bb
    MP1 GrayNutria (€18,908) 126bb
    MP2 Hero (€36,730) 245bb
    MP3 Benzo75 (€19,310) 129bb
    CO amourtortues (€17,250) 115bb
    BTN HanK_HulaY (€15,610) 104bb
    SB Pessagno (€19,850) 132bb
    BB La Rage Pute (€18,993) 127bb

    Pre-Flop: (€225, 9 players) Hero is MP2 5 6
    KKick_ur_AAs raises to €450, 2 folds, Hero calls €450, 4 folds, La Rage Pute calls €300

    Flop: 4 9 7 (€1,425, 3 players)
    La Rage Pute checks, KKick_ur_AAs bets €900, Hero calls €900, La Rage Pute raises to €2,850, KKick_ur_AAs calls €1,950, Hero calls €1,950

    Turn: K (€9,975, 3 players)
    La Rage Pute bets €4,200, KKick_ur_AAs calls €4,200, Hero?

    Stats (overload) are below and HUD is

    VPIP/PFR/Steal/FoldtoSteal/3bet/Foldto3bet
    Cbet/TurnCbet/FoldtoCbet/RFI-EP/RFI-MP/M
    FlopAgg/TurnAgg/RiverAgg/BB/Hands



    Thoughts on all streets?

    #2
    3b pre?more likely to get heads up, deep enough to call small 4b
    as played i think i get it in on flop would be nice to get it in against an overpair if the bb has a set its not the end of the world especially if the fun player cant fold his overpair
    just pray the bb hasnt got a9ss but thats all id be afraid of

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by noname1255 View Post
      3b pre?more likely to get heads up, deep enough to call small 4b
      This is by far the worst option, 3bet calling 4bet vs a utgs range is beyond bad. Are you suggesting 3bet to 1050 and call 3k 4bet vs a 19k stack that's heavily weighted to JJ+?

      I probably fold pre with 4 behind in a bigger buy-in where you describe utg as weak and therefore more inclined to be 3bet iso'd from behind,calling's hardly bad though. As played either calling or raising the cbet seems fine and once you flat I just flat the c/r too.

      Turn's gross but I know in game I don't fold. I just don't expect to ever get value on any river , and not suprised when I'm not good either vs bigger flushs.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by LTL View Post
        This is by far the worst option, 3bet calling 4bet vs a utgs range is beyond bad. Are you suggesting 3bet to 1050 and call 3k 4bet vs a 19k stack that's heavily weighted to JJ+?

        I probably fold pre with 4 behind in a bigger buy-in where you describe utg as weak and therefore more inclined to be 3bet iso'd from behind,calling's hardly bad though. As played either calling or raising the cbet seems fine and once you flat I just flat the c/r too.

        Turn's gross but I know in game I don't fold. I just don't expect to ever get value on any river , and not suprised when I'm not good either vs bigger flushs.

        folding isnt bad pre fair enough,i defo like to be in later pos.
        i dont think we are 4b alot i doubt a fun player 4bs jj maybe not even qq and when he 4bs kk aa id call one of those silly click back bets (not 3k no)
        with 56ss i want to be against exactly this big pair type hand

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by noname1255 View Post
          with 56ss i want to be against exactly this big pair type hand
          56s isn't a hand that i generally try to get HU with at a deepish table. I'm happy enough to go multiway with it. It's a hand i'll 3bet with quite a bit, but don't think it's the best ploy in this particular spot.

          Comment


            #6
            I dont mind the call pre with 56s. It plays well multiway. - as you've said. Also the opener is almost always cbetting so if you hit gin, you can win a nice pot. I think the BB just thinks he's 'priced in' Not enough stats for any other read.

            flop is fine too, you can either call or fold the cr. It's possible that the BB has flopped 2 pair or a set or something. I don't think it's a hoof. If the opener has anything good at this stage, I think he's re-popping the CR.

            The turn is a bit of an ugh card. The BB lead and more importantly the UTG's call is screaming strength at this point. If the BB has flopped a set, that's taking away some of your outs, If UTG has a higher FD, you're fecked.

            I think I'm letting this one go.

            Comment


              #7
              I'd probably fold pre too, flop I think is fine, argument for raising etc but seems fine. I fold turn, I think it comes down effective stacks and without running any numbers, I don't think the implied odds are there.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by LTL View Post

                Turn's gross but I know in game I don't fold. I just don't expect to ever get value on any river , and not suprised when I'm not good either vs bigger flushs.
                Originally posted by newbie2 View Post
                The turn is a bit of an ugh card. The BB lead and more importantly the UTG's call is screaming strength at this point. If the BB has flopped a set, that's taking away some of your outs, If UTG has a higher FD, you're fecked.

                I think I'm letting this one go.
                Yeah, I did think about folding the turn, seeing as I was possibly only drawing the straight nut outs at this point but decided to peel because I was thinking the BB might have flopped a set/top2/FD and i still think I stack off to him in game if I hit a spade on the river tbh. UTG did show strength but not necessarily nut strength.

                Here's the river. BB jams, UTG fold and I fold getting 3/1. It's been niggling me whether I should fold turn becasue after getting to the river, I don't think he jams 97, 9x so he really should only have a house/bigger FD here.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Yeah, after the BB bets turn, he's only got a Pot sized bet behind. It was always going in on the river. Another reason I'm folding the turn. There aren't very many cards I want to see on the river and the K of spades is probably the worst one TBH.

                  I don't think he's jamming here with 2 pair or a worse flush. In fairness, I think he's turned his hand face up.

                  I would like to know what UTG was doing ? !?

                  I know we're getting 3/1 but I thnik I fold here too.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by newbie2 View Post
                    Yeah, after the BB bets turn, he's only got a Pot sized bet behind. It was always going in on the river. Another reason I'm folding the turn. There aren't very many cards I want to see on the river and the K of spades is probably the worst one TBH.

                    I don't think he's jamming here with 2 pair or a worse flush. In fairness, I think he's turned his hand face up.

                    I would like to know what UTG was doing ? !?

                    I know we're getting 3/1 but I thnik I fold here too.
                    I don't think calling turn and folding river makes much sense, if you get to the river, you have to call, only have to be right like 26% of the time to make it a break even call. Call turn gotta call river

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by brady23 View Post
                      I don't think calling turn and folding river makes much sense, if you get to the river, you have to call, only have to be right like 26% of the time to make it a break even call. Call turn gotta call river
                      Unless he decided to turn his hand into a bluff, i'm not sure what we beat. The only hand that he might be value betting that we beat is KXs and he backdoored trips. K9 is another hand that would make sense. Weakish players tend to c/r this on the flop, and I like how he played turn/river if that was the case. I just don't think i'm ahead 26% of the time here.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Thinking is overrated.
                        Snap it off for the bants.


                        fwiw I definitely fold turn, probably play all other streets the same
                        Go big or go homeless.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                          Unless he decided to turn his hand into a bluff, i'm not sure what we beat. The only hand that he might be value betting that we beat is KXs and he backdoored trips. K9 is another hand that would make sense. Weakish players tend to c/r this on the flop, and I like how he played turn/river if that was the case. I just don't think i'm ahead 26% of the time here.
                          Yeah I think it's pretty close, I think his range is quite nutted, gotta be right 1 in every 4 times. It's probably marginal, imo regardless of any pre flop preference, the mistake is made on the turn.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by brady23 View Post
                            Yeah I think it's pretty close, I think his range is quite nutted, gotta be right 1 in every 4 times. It's probably marginal, imo regardless of any pre flop preference, the mistake is made on the turn.
                            Yeah, still unsure if it's a big mistake on the turn. I have 8 outs to the actual nuts (4x3's and 4x8's as 106 and J10 are never there, unless J10s) so ~16% and i'm getting 4.5/1 immeditiate pot odds plus I stack at least 1 of them if i hit. I'm less inclined to think the NFD plays it this way so I could have another 8 spade outs that I might not get paid off though. My hand is pretty face up as a draw too. If i did fold turn, I'd have to hide the table and never look back at the HH again

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                              Yeah, still unsure if it's a big mistake on the turn. I have 8 outs to the actual nuts (4x3's and 4x8's as 106 and J10 are never there, unless J10s) so ~16% and i'm getting 4.5/1 immeditiate pot odds plus I stack at least 1 of them if i hit. I'm less inclined to think the NFD plays it this way so I could have another 8 spade outs that I might not get paid off though. My hand is pretty face up as a draw too. If i did fold turn, I'd have to hide the table and never look back at the HH again
                              Oh I think if they are deeper or even 1 is then it's a defo call but given effective stacks, I'm not convinced, I haven't been running numbers in over 6 months so I can't be sure.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                this is easy enough spot really,
                                it all really comes down to knowing how the bb plays his stats are easy to read he very tight so pair wise 77 bottom of his range so puts 99 in there aswell ,,,

                                all comes down to is he a pot controller does he like to just cal with his draws or does he like to checkraise id check his check raise % if you dont no this , if it very low safe to say prob 77 or 99 you ran into and for that reason id cal turn he has so little behind he never folding river when you hit and you can easily call this on none paired board with your straight or flush if they got there

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by jazzyfish View Post
                                  this is easy enough spot really,
                                  it all really comes down to knowing how the bb plays his stats are easy to read he very tight so pair wise 77 bottom of his range so puts 99 in there aswell ,,,

                                  all comes down to is he a pot controller does he like to just cal with his draws or does he like to checkraise id check his check raise % if you dont no this , if it very low safe to say prob 77 or 99 you ran into and for that reason id cal turn he has so little behind he never folding river when you hit and you can easily call this on none paired board with your straight or flush if they got there
                                  It's only 25 hands so i'm not reading too much into his stats but he did seem tight up to that point. Yeah, as said, i'm calling to pretty much stacking off if i hit any of my draws on the river but the Ks was a nasty card. Would probably have folded a non pair spade if both players shoved also.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
                                    It's only 25 hands so i'm not reading too much into his stats but he did seem tight up to that point. Yeah, as said, i'm calling to pretty much stacking off if i hit any of my draws on the river but the Ks was a nasty card. Would probably have folded a non pair spade if both players shoved also.
                                    ye sorry didnt realize it was such a small a sample my bad i really got spend more time reading these lol

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      i use to make these mistakes all the time i dont think its ever gonna be good for you playing big pots with so little information about a player or what there even capable of with week holding s id let these spots go

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        As played I'm for sure folding the river, and I'm also always calling the turn getting 4.5/1 with 8 outs to the nuts, 6 of which if we hit, we're stacking the guy nearly every time. Also, the 5 other non pairing spades very likely gives us the best hand and we may get some value on river if checked to. Played fine imo just rotten runout.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          I'd be sitting with the j-10 spades praying for that red 8 ball
                                          Go big or go homeless.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Hrm. I think you played it fine tbh. On the turn you had great pot odds, great implied odds and terrible RIO. But even if you forget about your flush outs (Only mdoug is holding TsJs here ), you've still got 10 bingo cards and a very small chance you won't get paid on a river bet. The call is fine. A fold is fine too given that it's early in a tournament and only fish bust at this stage.

                                            Other thoughts:

                                            -Dealer did you a favour as Ks was the worst card in the deck. Saved you a little bit of agonising over the river fold.

                                            -3betting 56s 127bb deep is distinctly suboptimal. Lern2play deep n00b.
                                            "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              3 bet pre if your gonna play this hand. Especially on french site where its not that unlikely to go 4 way+ by peeling. I know Andy above said its sub optimal but imo think its better than peeling. There'd be tables where I'd fold and there'd be tables where I'd 3bet. Id peel this from BB and occasionally the button with tight blinds. Its just not strong enough imo.

                                              As played pre, on flop i would just raise again and get it in if he shoves. I think its pretty good spot for him to raise flop and bomb bomb on alot of runouts with J10xx etc. Once you just called flop you can only call turn, dont like folding or shoving.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by AKQJ10 View Post
                                                3 bet pre if your gonna play this hand. Especially on french site where its not that unlikely to go 4 way+ by peeling. I know Andy above said its sub optimal but imo think its better than peeling. There'd be tables where I'd fold and there'd be tables where I'd 3bet. Id peel this from BB and occasionally the button with tight blinds. Its just not strong enough imo.

                                                As played pre, on flop i would just raise again and get it in if he shoves. I think its pretty good spot for him to raise flop and bomb bomb on alot of runouts with J10xx etc. Once you just called flop you can only call turn, dont like folding or shoving.
                                                this doesnt make to much sense if your saying he can raise flops and bomb bomb run out with j,10xx what makes you think he wont shove to your raise ? you calling 100bb with 6 hi ? we have no info on the player he could have 10-8 of spades for all we no witch kills us he has our blocker
                                                Last edited by jazzyfish; 21-02-15, 13:23.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  its just a small part of his range i'm including that i dont think everyone will include. if hes doing it with hands as J10 no fd then i think theres plenty of hands that will just give up facing further action on the flop and that's fine for us, as you said we've 6 high.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by AKQJ10 View Post
                                                    its just a small part of his range i'm including that i dont think everyone will include. if hes doing it with hands as J10 no fd then i think theres plenty of hands that will just give up facing further action on the flop and that's fine for us, as you said we've 6 high.
                                                    , on flop i just raise again and get it in if he shoves ,,, this was my point with 6 hi


                                                    there s plenty more hands in cr f range that wont fold to further action than there is that would
                                                    Last edited by jazzyfish; 23-02-15, 18:12.

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