Originally posted by reilly110
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IO AK getting 3bet
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Originally posted by Arazi View PostThis hand was presented in a vaccum and in such folding AK to a single raise to what turns out to be KK is pretty good.They will be like WTF how does he always have the top of his range, and they will be saying that when you show up with like nine's - Jimmy Fricke
Nine's are the top of my range - Shaun Deeb
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Originally posted by reilly110 View Postsilly logic really
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Originally posted by Arazi View PostMy logic is in the initial reply to the OP and during the course of the thread before the result I read nothing to change my mind as poster after poster stumbled to make any logical argument or take in any of the dynamics in the OP, a thoroughly disappointing experience.
1 piece of info is all you need -1- your opponent is sean prenderville
4betting is very profitable
calling maybe but way tougher to play
if you fold hands as strong as this he will trample on you -fact
the end
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Normally I respect your contributions but that post is actually retarded. We need every piece of information available to us in order to make the most accurate decisions, true some are more weighty than others but to simply ignore some or not pick up on them is negligent.
Also fwiw all decisions made in a vaccum should be analysed based on results.
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Originally posted by Arazi View PostNormally I respect your contributions but that post is actually retarded. We need every piece of information available to us in order to make the most accurate decisions, true some are more weighty than others but to simply ignore some or not pick up on them is negligent.
Also fwiw all decisions made in a vaccum should be analysed based on results.
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Originally posted by Arazi View PostNormally I respect your contributions but that post is actually retarded. We need every piece of information available to us in order to make the most accurate decisions, true some are more weighty than others but to simply ignore some or not pick up on them is negligent.
Also fwiw all decisions made in a vaccum should be analysed based on results.
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Isn't the whole point of poker to make decisions based of ranges of our opponents and whether the play is profitable in the long run ? AK from what i've read would do very well against the ranges in question here. We give ourseleves two chances to win the pot, with the 4-bet and by getting it in against the range we perceive the player would have and winning? I don't really see the point of making decisions in a vaccum tbh.
12550/call for me all day.
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You win all the G-Bucks in the world here with AK.
I just 4 bet and try and get it in pre. Anything else is bad in the long run I would say. we arent that deep or anything <50bbs so folding or playing it passively against a agro player is awful.
@arazi
I understand what you are trying to say and this forum needs some devils advocates but this is super straight forward.
My guess is that the only reason we are even hearing about this hand is the fact that it happened on Day 2 of such a massive buy in tournament and the OP was understandably gutted.
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Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View PostI think you over thoought what I said mate, basically I would flat too but for this opponent his +ev move is to 4bet (obv depends on his post flop play).
Anyway I don't think there is any dispute that 4betting is a +EV play, but I think calling is more +EV than 4betting and after all we are trying to make the most profitable decision.
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This is all I was referring to mate. "but it is a much better option than playing Sean oop if your not confident"
I am not trying to come across patronizing.Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.
My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666
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i haven't played against the villain and maybe he is so aggressive that 4b/calling is fine here but one factor i don't think people are paying enough attention to is that a very good reason to frequently 3bet people's loose HJ/CO opening ranges is so that people will be happy automatically getting stuff like AK in vs you for 40+bbs regardless of the situation, and a good player will be aware of that fact and actively seeking to take advantage of it.
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Not this situation in particular but can we ever 4 bet fold hands like this in a situation where we crush our opponents 3 bet range but dont do too well against his 5 bet range? Never do it myself but have seen good winning players click it back here online and then fold. How deep would we have to be etc??
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Originally posted by Downtown View PostNot this situation in particular but can we ever 4 bet fold hands like this in a situation where we crush our opponents 3 bet range but dont do too well against his 5 bet range? Never do it myself but have seen good winning players click it back here online and then fold. How deep would we have to be etc??
Was player dependant & would do it again in the right circumstances.
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Originally posted by Downtown View PostNot this situation in particular but can we ever 4 bet fold hands like this in a situation where we crush our opponents 3 bet range but dont do too well against his 5 bet range? Never do it myself but have seen good winning players click it back here online and then fold. How deep would we have to be etc??
balanced of course because they click back their entire 4 betting range
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Originally posted by Downtown View PostNot this situation in particular but can we ever 4 bet fold hands like this in a situation where we crush our opponents 3 bet range but dont do too well against his 5 bet range? Never do it myself but have seen good winning players click it back here online and then fold. How deep would we have to be etc??
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Originally posted by KK82 View PostThink if we're 4 bet folding, we shouldn't be 4 betting at all then. Wouldn't it mean we're effectively bluffing with AK in that case?
Downtown's point is essentially right in theory. If somebody is 3betting very light but only committing to a 5bet with the top of their range (say 10% of the 3bet range) then 4bet folding will be profitable. The problem is identifying these spots, if they exist at all.
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Originally posted by Mellor View PostNot totally bluffing due to the chance of him flatting the 4 bet. It doesn't really matter if its a bluff or for value, only that its profitable.
Downtown's point is essentially right in theory. If somebody is 3betting very light but only committing to a 5bet with the top of their range (say 10% of the 3bet range) then 4bet folding will be profitable. The problem is identifying these spots, if they exist at all.
I think folding to his 3 bet is pretty awful, but would rather that than 4 bet folding.
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Originally posted by KK82 View PostIMO 4 bet folding is the absolute worst of all our options. Three things can happen. We commit about 25% of our stack to either 1) fold AK to his shove 2) Get him to fold a garbage hand, or 3) Get called and have to play AK OOP to a very dangerous player.
I think folding to his 3 bet is pretty awful, but would rather that than 4 bet folding.
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I'm definitely in the 4b/call camp with history vs this villain. It's obviously not a fist pump but of our three options it is almost definitely the best.
Folding to preserve stack/edge is flawed logic since villain is going to be on your direct left for the duration and will never make it easy for you to isoalte bad players or steal in future hands, so there is no guarantee of being able to find better low variance spots to chip up.
Calling is better, but we will almost never win the pot when we miss, and the times we hit we have to be able to win a big enough pot to compensate for the times we just burn off our 5k. Assuming villain barrels off a decent amount we can probably make up for it, but on certain textures/runouts villain may still force a fold from us on later streets after we've hit so it's not that straight-forward.
Sure, when we 4b/c his 5b range is gonna be super tight but we get a ton of folds, and the times it does go in the only hand we're in terrible shape against is AA of which there are far fewer combos than AK/QQ/JJ so it's just a meh spot.
Questioning our line after the fact is pointless because Seans game is tailored to induce this kind of action the times he has a hand, all hero can do is adjust his play-back ranges accordingly to avoid being steamrolled."c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"
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Originally posted by KK82 View PostIMO 4 bet folding is the absolute worst of all our options. Three things can happen. We commit about 25% of our stack to either 1) fold AK to his shove 2) Get him to fold a garbage hand, or 3) Get called and have to play AK OOP to a very dangerous player.
I think folding to his 3 bet is pretty awful, but would rather that than 4 bet folding.
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Originally posted by Mellor View PostI actually went to the trouble of bolding the word IF in the last post to make it clear it was a general comment and not a coment of Seans range here. I even said "if they exist at all" to be clear it wasn't about this hand.
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Originally posted by KK82 View PostMy point still stands. Don't think 4 bet folding is ever a good play with a hand as strong as AK. If you're even considering not going with it pre, then just flatting is a much better option.
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Originally posted by Dice75 View PostI did it in the EMOP last year, 4 bet folded 15% of my stack oop with AK vs a hugely competant TAG shove & got lambasted in the live update thread.
Was player dependant & would do it again in the right circumstances.Turning millions into thousands
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Originally posted by KK82 View PostMy point still stands. Don't think 4 bet folding is ever a good play with a hand as strong as AK. If you're even considering not going with it pre, then just flatting is a much better option.
I'm not advising it here and I didn't say it was a better option than simply calling the 3 bet either. I didnt compare it to any option.
I was just saying that it can be profitable as a counter point to "you can't ever 4bet fold".
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