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    Some interesting spots

    All live 12

    Hand 1)

    Two limpers and I make it 10 on the button with 55. Blinds and limpers call. Flop is 556 two hearts. BB leads out for 17 and gets two calls before it gets to me. Best line? Stack sizes are roughly 300, 400, 100. All players are not good at folding.

    Hand 2)

    Tight old man raises utg. I call on button with KQ hearts. Flop is 9Tx with the 9T of hearts. He leads for full pot. a) What is his most likely hand b) whats the best play (100bb stack)
    Last edited by Hectorjelly; 20-12-14, 20:13.

    #2
    Hand 1. I see no reason to not bump it to 50ish. Very wet flop with plenty of draws likely and possibly an A6 may call? Or any 6 might call here. I'd play turn aggressively too trying to get them in obviously and may also look like you just want to nick a juicy pot.

    Hand 2. Is nearly always a premium. AK at worst. I'd just flat. If you hit he will still check call cos he will know he's likely behind but won't want to fold a huge hand. Unless you feel like a gambool to get them in, I'd just flat and bet/raise when made.

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      #3
      Hand 1 I like your thinking but 50 is too much, a min raise I think is perfect. Any players with gutshots will probably call a min raise but not much more. I think a raise gives away the strength of my hand a little, but it looks like A5 which people will happily try to crack.

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        #4
        I think a min raise would show your strength more than a raise to 50. If you make it 50 it screams premium to me and you just don't want to give it up. You bumped it to 10 pre after a couple of limps so that always looks premium imo. If you min it, it looks a lot stronger 66 or A5 I'd be thinking. And if they're gonna call a min here, they're calling 50. We're nearly guaranteed someone has a hand to go to war with on this flop so I see no reason to just min it.

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          #5
          Hand 1 - There's €100 in pot by time it gets to you so I don't think 50 is a bad raise. The clue is in your line that they're not good at folding.

          Plus you want to be able to get a good bit in on the turn as well so the more you can push your flop raise the better.

          Hand 2 - If he's tight and old and utg, he's probably something like 10s +, AQ+. His pot bet is probably his attempt to price you out/protect his hand. I'm probably just calling but with 100bb effective and your chances of hitting I don;t mind raising either.

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            #6
            I'd be flat calling in both hands and sometimes raising Hand 1, never Hand 2. Like the 50 bet size suggested already. Should make a big payday if a 6, 4, 8 or heart pop up on the turn.

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              #7
              Hand 1 - Flat give as many players as poss a chance to make their hand on the turn whilst disguising your strength. If you raise you may get callers but its likely to be checked around to you.

              Hand 2 - get it in.

              Comment


                #8
                Hand 1) think the decision mainly rests on how you've been plating thus far- if you've taken aggressive lines previously then a raise seems ideal (45-50 seems about right to me) but it does look strong so have to ask would you raise 99 or TT here - if yes - which I would guess is the answer - then I would raise but if you have taken a lot of calling in position type lines with 1 pair hands then flatting seems best, especially as if you flat there will be 118 in the pot (I think) so can probably get stacks in by river if someone makes a straight / flush or has 66 (~80 in to 118 on turn + ~190 into 280 on river [assumes 1 caller on turn])...

                Hand 2) depends how tight is tight - guessing he is still raising 77+ AT+ (?) but is less likely to bet no pair hands so JJ-AA seems pretty feasible - think you have relatively little fold equity so flatting seems best on face value , villain can also have AK a decent amount and shut down on turn if misses ,and if has a made hand will most likely pay off 2 decent street if you get there

                On the other hand, with such a strong draw a small raise seems good, depending on how likely you think he is to stick it in your eye - one pair hands, even AA ,will often go into check call mode if facing aggression so can often safely pot build here for when we hit while making it a more believable line to try and get him off on later streets for when we don't

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                  #9
                  Hand 1.. I think the best play is flat in the spot. You have a dream hand in a dream spot and the other players are doing the work why raise and risk them folding ? I know you said they are not good at folding but if you raise here it screams i have a monster. Flat call and let them improve theirs hands hopefully get more that one to commit their stack..

                  Hand 2.. I also flat call. Our hand is to big to give up on but if we raise and get shoved on its a horrible spot especially when the villains more that likely shows up with a monster pair or set then we have to hit to win.. If we call we can control the pot in position and maximise or winning when we hit the flush or straight.. Also when we call we have the advantage of seeing how he will play on the turn maybe he shuts down with AJ+ and we can take the hand down by betting


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                    #10
                    Originally posted by ChrisOHare View Post
                    Hand 2.. if we raise and get shoved on its a horrible spot
                    we are never in a horrible spot here if we raise, we are flipping vs JJ+ if he shove and can get him to fold hands he is ahead of us right now AK/AQ/88, etc.


                    1. I like to flat, we should get to play for stacks by the river anyway if a lot of chips get in on the turn.

                    2. Raise (and call if shoved obv). If I get called I may barrel some turns, check behind some others, depending on reads. I just don't want to get check/shoved on the turn though.
                    "Poker isn’t about default strategies, it’s about exploiting your opponent's bad tendencies"

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                      #11
                      [QUOTE=ViperEyeIRL;861723]we are never in a horrible spot here if we raise, we are flipping vs JJ+ if he shove and can get him to fold hands he is ahead of us right now AK/AQ/88, etc.


                      Yea horrible spot wasn't the correct choice of words to use lol.. At least a flip can hardly qualify for a horrible spot what i meant was if he shoves to our raise we have to call knowing we need to hit but i can see your point and i think you are correct if he folds we win what is in the middle and he shoves we are still very much alive and its best to have 2 cards to come instead of one if we plan to get it in on the turn..




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                        #12
                        Hand 1 I probably call...pretty unusual situation tbf

                        Hand 2 I raise/call. His most likely hand I suppose is AA/JJ..(is this 9 handed?)..hopefully not nfd. Not impossible that someone could fold an overpair here(I'm fairly tight and getting on in years - I mean if you have JJ here what are you hoping to get it in against). To everyone advocating a call whats the plan on a brick turn if he pots it again?

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                          #13
                          where are the interesting spots again??? :P

                          hand 1: flat
                          hand 2: flat

                          !

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Hand 1, I much prefer raising to calling as you vastly inflate the pot making it a lot easier to stack people. Every single turn card is going to be a scare card for most holdings so the more money that goes in on the flop the better. I don't think anyone is folding a gutshot to a minraise, they might fold for more. Also if you look at the stacks if I make it 34 the third guy might just shove his 100 in allowing me to just call and the pot to get even bigger. Raising announces the strength of my hand somewhat, but its worth it to increase the size of the pot.

                            Hand 2, Tight old man raises utg and pots that flop, we block AK and AQ fd, so he pretty much always has an overpair, most likely aces (given his position and our blockers). I saw this exact hand happen twice and thought the guy in position could play his hand much better than just getting it in because that happens to be slightly +EV. If the old guy has a bet folding range then getting it in is fine, but in my experience they don't.

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                              #15
                              I like getting it in in hand 2, not because it's a +EV spot. It's probably neutral EV, you have 45% versus a range of {99+,AhJh}, but it's very good for your image. Other players will widen your percieved range in other hands. This is very important for getting paid on your big hands (like in Hand 1) in the modern game IMO.
                              "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

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                                #16
                                Not important at all in a live 1/2 game, and these days getting it in with a combo draw is superstandard, nobody is going to even notice it

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  I really hate your logic and your reasoning.
                                  Also when people say Get It In they mean Get It In First - there's no better way to play hand 2 than this.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                    I really hate your logic and your reasoning.
                                    Also when people say Get It In they mean Get It In First - there's no better way to play hand 2 than this.
                                    You are totally wrong, if the assumptions listed above are correct then flatting has a much bigger expectation and a lower variance. I assume I don't need to spell out why!

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Yeah don't bother "spelling it out".

                                      Also if you're worried about variance just ask him to run it twice.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                        Yeah don't bother "spelling it out".

                                        Also if you're worried about variance just ask him to run it twice.
                                        A call is better than a raise, you're only getting action v better. But I see how you're punter judgement is clouded.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Omg it so isn't.
                                          We (OP) seem to be assuming villain has an overpair. We have 12 outs vs AA and KK, perhaps 15 vs QQ & poss 17 vs JJ so why should we be worried about getting "action". The guy only has about 10% of his stack in (assuming standard preflop action) so even with AA he can't love the prospect of putting his money in.

                                          Theoretically we are favourites right now so our object IMO should be to get as much money in now as possible whilst also having the opportunity to win it here and now.
                                          Last edited by Arazi; 05-01-15, 02:06.

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                                            #22
                                            Can you clarify raise size in hand 2? I think there are hands that villain bet-folds here so I'd favour a raise. You only need villain to fold a small percentage of the time for it to tilt the balance back in favour of jamming.
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                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                              Omg it so isn't.
                                              We (OP) seem to be assuming villain has an overpair. We have 12 outs vs AA and KK, perhaps 15 vs QQ & poss 17 vs JJ so why should we be worried about getting "action". The guy only has about 10% of his stack in (assuming standard preflop action) so even with AA he can't love the prospect of putting his money in.

                                              Theoretically we are favourites right now so our object IMO should be to get as much money in now as possible whilst also having the opportunity to win it here and now.
                                              I think you might get a better response if you tried to be a bit more civil. Just saying you hate the logic without any explanation is worthless.

                                              I also don't think you are really reading what I'm saying, you seem to be responding to something else entirely. If you think someone is going to pass AA on a 9Tx board for 100bbs then raise away. I would never expect anyone to (and would play them totally differently than the villain as described).

                                              Also your last statement is laughably wrong. The object of poker isn't to wait until you have a slight equity edge and then get as much money in as possible, its to make as much money as possible; and they won't always be the same thing.

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                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                I think you might get a better response if you tried to be a bit more civil. Just saying you hate the logic without any explanation is worthless.

                                                I also don't think you are really reading what I'm saying, you seem to be responding to something else entirely. If you think someone is going to pass AA on a 9Tx board for 100bbs then raise away. I would never expect anyone to (and would play them totally differently than the villain as described).

                                                Also your last statement is laughably wrong. The object of poker isn't to wait until you have a slight equity edge and then get as much money in as possible, its to make as much money as possible; and they won't always be the same thing.
                                                Keep your panties on there hectorjelly. Arazi is entitled to his opinion, even if it is wrong.
                                                Last edited by IPBYOUSAY; 05-01-15, 03:53.

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                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by IPBYOUSAY View Post
                                                  Keep your panties on there hectorjelly. Arazi is entitled to his opinion, even if it is wrong.
                                                  I'm sure he can speak for himself

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    HJ, I'm really not going to get into another argument about the civility of my responses on a public forum, we've done that before.

                                                    It should be quite obvious why I said that I hate your logic and your reasoning as it differs entirely from my initial response. If you want to go raising flopped Quads in a multiway pot on a drawy board where there's already been a bet and several calls then go ahead. Personally I flat here always for the reasons I gave.
                                                    My reply was certainly less crass than simply saying "you are totally wrong".

                                                    However once again I've made the mistake of thinking that a post of yours in the theory section is a call for advice and debate rather than an egotistic precursor to an attempt by you to school the rest of us on your theories of poker. I believe you would do well to realise that a lot of people that read this site are considerably better than you at poker, "make a lot more money" (really, thanks for informing me that this is the object) & aren't Afraid of getting it in when guaranteed to be at least flipping.

                                                    Now having said all that I'll resist the temptation to tell you where to go with yourself.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                                      Now having said all that I'll resist the temptation to tell you where to go with yourself.
                                                      And yet somehow it feels like you haven't resisted at all...
                                                      "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

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                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                        Not important at all in a live 1/2 game, and these days getting it in with a combo draw is superstandard, nobody is going to even notice it
                                                        Conversely, if you hit and show it down, players paying attention will definitely notice that you didn't get them in with a massive draw.
                                                        "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

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                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                          I think you might get a better response if you tried to be a bit more civil. Just saying you hate the logic without any explanation is worthless.

                                                          I also don't think you are really reading what I'm saying, you seem to be responding to something else entirely. If you think someone is going to pass AA on a 9Tx board for 100bbs then raise away. I would never expect anyone to (and would play them totally differently than the villain as described).

                                                          Also your last statement is laughably wrong. The object of poker isn't to wait until you have a slight equity edge and then get as much money in as possible, its to make as much money as possible; and they won't always be the same thing.
                                                          Do they always have AA here? Do they sometimes have JJ-KK, and if so, do they ever fold these hands? What about AK and AQ, do they just check-fold the flop? If you have flopped bottom set in this hand, do you just shove because villain always has an over-pair and never folds?
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                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                                            However once again I've made the mistake of thinking that a post of yours in the theory section is a call for advice and debate rather than an egotistic precursor to an attempt by you to school the rest of us on your theories of poker. I believe you would do well to realise that a lot of people that read this site are considerably better than you at poker, "make a lot more money" (really, thanks for informing me that this is the object) & aren't Afraid of getting it in when guaranteed to be at least flipping.

                                                            Now having said all that I'll resist the temptation to tell you where to go with yourself.
                                                            I thought these were interesting spots because what I thought was the best play (after the fact) was almost the opposite than the standard line would be, I was just hoping for more explanation to a point than "I hate your reasoning". To me the bare minimum it requires is an explanation. What logic is wrong? What assumption do you disagree with? I am open to being wrong, (especially by those people better at poker than me). Am I being ridiculous here?

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Jam-Fly View Post
                                                              Do they always have AA here? Do they sometimes have JJ-KK, and if so, do they ever fold these hands? What about AK and AQ, do they just check-fold the flop? If you have flopped bottom set in this hand, do you just shove because villain always has an over-pair and never folds?
                                                              Yes, my whole argument is based upon quite a strong read on that player type, as well as using the cards in our hand. Most normal players could have quite a widish range here (like good tens) against which we have much better equity, but to me a tight old guy raising in EP means AK,AQ or AA - JJ, AK with JJ somewhat discounted. I don't think he full pots the flop without an overpair, NFD or set. Its almost impossible for him to have the NFD when we have the K and Q and he raised utg (although AJs is slightly possible and has us in terrible shape anyway). Everything points to him having aces.

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                                I thought these were interesting spots because what I thought was the best play (after the fact) was almost the opposite than the standard line would be, I was just hoping for more explanation to a point than "I hate your reasoning". To me the bare minimum it requires is an explanation. What logic is wrong? What assumption do you disagree with? I am open to being wrong, (especially by those people better at poker than me). Am I being ridiculous here?
                                                                My reply in Post #7 is completely contrary to yours in Post #14, hence me saying that I hated your logic and reasoning , note I didn't say it was wrong. I also didn't say I disagreed with any assumptions you made in the hand. Personally I'd give him a wider range and I'd expect a tight player could fold an overpair in this spot (prob not AA or KK) but I think u might struggle to get paid if u flat and filled on the turn.

                                                                If you tell us the exact bets and stack sizes I could elaborate on my line.

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Hand 2 I wasn't involved in so I'm not sure of the exact amounts, it was something like utg make it €11 pre, one caller. Flop bet is €25, with €225 left to go in.

                                                                  Hand 1 I flat called the flop, turn was a Jack which was checked around (don't like my check here), river 8 and the shortstack shoved having rivered a straight. The BB thought for a long time before folding the river.

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Hand 2 looks fine as played, it worked out pretty well. I guess you could have bet something small on the turn to inflate/induce.

                                                                    Hand 1, stacks are a touch tricky (he started with 260ish).
                                                                    It's too much to jam although you could jam.

                                                                    I'd make it around 85 and obv call if he jams.
                                                                    If he calls and jams a blank turn I can fold as pot odds would prob be slightly against calling.
                                                                    If he checks a blank turn I prob check behind.
                                                                    If we hit turn and he jams, Bingo.
                                                                    If we hit turn and he checks then we jam, he will call here lots.

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      With the stacks as they are, if you call it leaves a really bad spot for the out of position player on the turn. The pot will be 75 with 200 left. If they full pot it they are basically committing themselves (225 pot with only 125 left), anything less and they are giving close to direct pot odds to call, never mind implied odds. Also if they do happen to have a bet folding range on this flop, a lot of it will check fold either the turn or river.

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        @Hj Are you calling turn again if he pots it on a brick.? We'd still have 25% equity with 150 behind. Are you thinking about bluffing say a ten river if he checks, or is bluffing right out? I'd say bluffing would probably be bad. I think in fairness it does change things a little when its 130bbs deep. If we take Arazis line and sizing then we must fold to a turn shove 130 deep but probably call 100 deep although it would be marginal. Also just wondering why you think AA is much more likely than JJ

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                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by BobSloane View Post
                                                                          @Hj Are you calling turn again if he pots it on a brick.? We'd still have 25% equity with 150 behind. Are you thinking about bluffing say a ten river if he checks, or is bluffing right out? I'd say bluffing would probably be bad. I think in fairness it does change things a little when its 130bbs deep. If we take Arazis line and sizing then we must fold to a turn shove 130 deep but probably call 100 deep although it would be marginal. Also just wondering why you think AA is much more likely than JJ
                                                                          Calling any bet on a turn unless its an overbet, I don't think this is too likely though. You might get someone to fold on a ten river, or they might call because all the draws missed. Against an ok/good hand reader I'd like to raise a 8 turn, not in this spot though.

                                                                          I think AA is more likely because tight players sometimes limp call JJ from EP

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                                                                            #38
                                                                            I think AA is more likely because tight players sometimes limp call JJ from EP[/QUOTE]


                                                                            Very unlikely anyone is playing JJ this awful anymore no matter how tight they are



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