shove or not?

[Guest]

ok lads this is a hand from this years irish open which has been playing on my mind for a while.. not sure of exact details but will give a description as best my memory allows.

im sitting on about 140k which is above average blinds are 2000/4000 with a 100 ante. the bubble has just gone a few hands before, its folded around to me on the button and i look down at AQo and raise it to 10.5k, seamus cahill is sitting to my left and has 3bet me quite a bit since he came to my table so it was no huge surprise when he 3bet to 33k out of the sb,bb quickly folds and it comes back around to me..... shove???

another bit of info which played on my mind a bit was when it came down to 65 players (64 to be paid) paddy power announced they would give whoever bubbled free entry to next years event, seamus wasnt happy with this and told me he was hoping to take advantage of the bubble and pick up alot of dead chips..

oh and by the way seamus was sitting on around 260k so had me well covered.

[shano_88]

Shove and be happy about it.

[Bubbleking]

what did you do the other times he 3bet you and most importantly what amount did he 3bet you to? and what positions were you in when he 3bet you?

I dont know Seamus or his game but when a good player 3x 3bets out of position alarm bells are sounding. Id be fairly sure (as in close to positive) that he isnt light here. SO you are hoping for a flip at best. At worst you are crushed.

I think I slowly fold - sometimes I go to the toilet and cry for awhile to completely remove any sense of masculinity I have left. I then return to the table and never speak of the hand again

[theduster]

a good player 3 bets your button raise, who has been doing it frequently... Your ahead here a lot of the time and with 50k+ in the middle it has to a shove all day...

[Guest]

what did you do the other times he 3bet you and most importantly what amount did he 3bet you to? and what positions were you in when he 3bet you?

I dont know Seamus or his game but when a good player 3x 3bets out of position alarm bells are sounding. Id be fairly sure (as in close to positive) that he isnt light here. SO you are hoping for a flip at best. At worst you are crushed.

I think I slowly fold - sometimes I go to the toilet and cry for awhile to completely remove any sense of masculinity I have left. I then return to the table and never speak of the hand again

all his previous 3bets were in position and i folded each time as i didnt want to play him out of position and the bubble was approaching and i wanted to make sure i cashed as i was playing a comfortable stack to make the money and didnt need to get involved in a big pot with what i considered a better player than me.

his 3 bet size was about 2.5x/3x so it was a pretty standard 3 bet from him..

[premierstone]

I think alot depends on what your table image is and what the villans perception of you is, you say you have folded to hes 3bets a few times albeit pre bubble so Im thinking he would class you as somewhat safe, as in not wanting to clash with the big stack, this combined with the fact that your raising range here is so much wider than AQ I would shove, I hate calling and having over 20% of my stack in against a competent agro player who has bullied me a few times already and is comfortable playing a big stack, I dont like folding here either as if you fold here he really has you owned and will continue to bully you. Shove is my move here.

[Starvin Marvin]

Never folding.

[ruzzer]

given previous history its not even close...easy shove!!!

[CHDad]

Min Raise

[Bubbleking]

looks like Im the only one who folds - sigh im a nit. I just think theres a massive difference between him doing this out of the SB instead of in position - and the raise is big too

[nicnicnic]

call - re evaluate flop

[ferg]

Dont think i could ever fold here.....ever

[ruzzer]

looks like Im the only one who folds - sigh im a nit. I just think theres a massive difference between him doing this out of the SB instead of in position - and the raise is big too

his 3bet range here given the previous history is all pairs most a's kq,kj and the likes, he knows the button is playing scared so he knows the 4bet range is so tight...he also knows the button range in comparrison is so wide, he looses to much value not 3betting any the above said hands....given all this anything but a shove is madness..

[DeadParrot]

call - re evaluate flop

really?
That was my initial reaction but we whiff the flop an awful lot and are certain of a cbet
I'm leaning on shove but would like to hear your thoughts on calling

[jack90210]

call - re evaluate flop

Worst option surely?

[Guest]

really?
That was my initial reaction but we whiff the flop an awful lot and are certain of a cbet
I'm leaning on shove but would like to hear your thoughts on calling

yeah i would be interested in hearing your thoughts on that too as i was never ever calling here it was either get it in or muck my hand i didnt feel calling was an option at all...

[nicnicnic]

really?
That was my initial reaction but we whiff the flop an awful lot and are certain of a cbet
I'm leaning on shove but would like to hear your thoughts on calling

It comes down to how comfortable I am playing a flop here in position There's obv many things that the particular flops will change but at a basic level, If I'm getting it in with AQ pre here I'm folding out all bluffing hands that I can get value from on the other streets. I'm playing the AQ as a made hand I suppose.

[Guest]

It comes down to how comfortable I am playing a flop here in position There's obv many things that the particular flops will change but at a basic level, If I'm getting it in with AQ pre here I'm folding out all bluffing hands that I can get value from on the other streets. I'm playing the AQ as a made hand I suppose.

yeah i guess if your comfortable playing this guy post flop in position then calling isnt the worst position but i wasnt at all comfortable doing that as i felt he was going to outplay me on a large percentage of flops even out of position...

[nicnicnic]

yeah i guess if your comfortable playing this guy post flop in position then calling isnt the worst position but i wasnt at all comfortable doing that as i felt he was going to outplay me on a large percentage of flops even out of position...

its 25 bigs behind - how bad can we play it

people saying calling isn't an option - do you ever call here with QQ KK AA

[DeadParrot]

its 25 bigs behind - how bad can we play it

people saying calling isn't an option - do you ever call here with QQ KK AA

exactly.
why not take the 50k out there now?
How do we play when we miss? We know villain has a high likelyhood of cbetting percieved 'safe' flops

[nicnicnic]

exactly.
why not take the 50k out there now?
How do we play when we miss? We know villain has a high likelyhood of cbetting percieved 'safe' flops

we're not folding any flop

[AndyFatBastard]

It's a good spot for a light shove alright. I don't mind peeling a flop in position either, depending on the opponent. Play some poker.

[peterswellman]

His 3-bet size makes me rule out AA, KK and QQ although he is OOP so maybe QQ is possibility. He could very well have AK. Have you been active on the button and in late position in general?

Fwiw, I would always be shoving this. He's a good player so he's going to pound on late position raises. Or you could just min-4bet him to really fook with him and snap off the shove.

[markc]

I prefer the shove. Only hands we really don't want to see are AA/KK/AK/QQ. While we do fold out his bluffs we also prob fold out several hands that are ahead (Will he call off with 77-22?). Don't like flatting here given stack sizes esp if I think Villain will shove any flop. As NinNic says u have to be prepared to play any flop if you flat pre but if no Ace or Queen comes its a tough spot to be in. Money in the middle pre-flop makes this a pretty easy shove imo. Don't think I'm ever folding here with 25BB given the history with Villain...

[Maloney]

Btn vs Sb of very good agro player, Im never folding, I mean when i open here Im half hoping to get 3bet by him as you have nice 4bet jamming stack. And Unlucky if u run into top of his range.

[Guest]

thanks for all the replies most of you are shoving here which is what i done...

he took a little bit of time to call (enough time to rule out the hands that has me crushed) so i knew i wasnt in too bad a shape.. he made the call with TT and we had a flip...

AsQh vs TdTs

Flop: 2h 3s 8h

Turn: 4h

River: 5c

turn card gave me alot of outs with any 5, Q, A or heart winning me the pot and bang i river a straight and win a huge pot, end the day with 350k in chips and go into day3 as one of the top 10 stacks left with 55 players remaining.

must say cahill handled himself really well for the entire time i played with him (played with him day3 aswell for a while) and i was delighted to see him make the FT and thought he was really unlucky not to go on and win it...

thanks for the replies guys.

[Mellor]

I dont know Seamus or his game but when a good player 3x 3bets out of position alarm bells are sounding. Id be fairly sure (as in close to positive) that he isnt light here.

looks like Im the only one who folds - sigh im a nit. I just think theres a massive difference between him doing this out of the SB instead of in position - and the raise is big too

That would be true if the OP rasied from EP or MP and was 3Bet by the SB.

But here, it was folded to the button who raised.
And a serial 3bettor re-poped from the SB.
Completely different situation. The OPs range is pretty wide as is the villains.

[Bubbleboy]

That would be true if the OP rasied from EP or MP and was 3Bet by the SB.

But here, it was folded to the button who raised.
And a serial 3bettor re-poped from the SB.
Completely different situation. The OPs range is pretty wide as is the villains.

+1

AQ,35 BB total,villain serial 3bettor, We've DA NUTZ.Get them in.

I like Nicky's thoughts for calling simply because a lot of players (including myself) will cold call with premium pairs here against a serial 3 bettor. We'll gain another bet on the flop most of the time if he's got air.And if he has a a decent hand like 8's to J's or AK we might be able to push a fold on the flop as 3 bettor probably won't like every board and will(hopefully) add premium pairs to our range.He won't fold most of these pre flop.This is 1. effectively trying to either scream massive hand and turning a strong preflop hand into possibly a bluff or 2. planning on flopping big or 3.calling them off on any flop and putting our stack on the line in the complete unknown,like a rolling stone.
Overall I think playing AQ as a made hand,cold calling 3 bet pre and investing this much giving opponent a decent chance to hit the board is best left to the likes of Nicky!!!Fair cryptic way to play it!!!lol

GET THEM IN,get sick when he shows premium,and run good all the other times.WP

[ferg]

I prefer the shove. Only hands we really don't want to see are AA/KK/AK/QQ. While we do fold out his bluffs we also prob fold out several hands that are ahead (Will he call off with 77-22?). Don't like flatting here given stack sizes esp if I think Villain will shove any flop. As NinNic says u have to be prepared to play any flop if you flat pre but if no Ace or Queen comes its a tough spot to be in. Money in the middle pre-flop makes this a pretty easy shove imo. Don't think I'm ever folding here with 25BB given the history with Villain...

Very much this....

And tbh...im not getting the 'call off half your stack line' atall.....surely at the thick end of a tourney its all about picking spots & getting them in....to me this has to be the perfect spot for this line.....get 'em in!!!

[Moneymaker]

I'm probably struggling to contain my glee as I shove here.

Though i'm open to the idea of flatting and getting the rest in on any flop, I prefer to just shove.

[KK82]

I'm probably struggling to contain my glee as I shove here.

Though i'm open to the idea of flatting and getting the rest in on any flop, I prefer to just shove.

Agree with this.. Your hand is extremely underrepped. You should be raising pretty wide opening on the button. AQ is near the very top of your range. Shove all day long.

Not too keen on flatting. What do we do on a K high flop we completely miss? Or on a three flush flop? Or a low flop? Hands like 77 have to call on the flop then. It's a huge proportion of our stack to be putting in with any possibility of folding.

[bops]

his 3bet size is way too big
4 bet is the only option
folding here is terrible
flatting/trapping here with AQ is rubbish

[nicnicnic]

his 3bet size is way too big
4 bet is the only option
folding here is terrible
flatting/trapping here with AQ is rubbish

ah the big man on the internet - when everyone knows you fold here in real life - that's what the Nitfish does best, folds!!

might go to Killarney Saturday - any interest ?

[bops]

i'd rather fold than flat you big fish

can't make kilarney, but i'm going to the club tonight - fancy a LL??

[Winning!]

Tank, then 55.5k/call. He knows that you know he can have air in this spot a decent amount of the time and may take a gamble and come over the top since it appears he has some fold equity. An aggro thinking player like Cahill is perfect for making a play like this against.