JP Monthly Game pre flop spot

[Bubbleking]

Just looking for opinions on this - I was talking to a few people and opinions were divided so Im looking for the best line.

Im @ the table about 5 orbits and have been chipping up pretty nicely without showdown. I started off with 22k and had it up to 32k before I took a hit

@400/800 bad player makes it 2800 UTG and I peel in the BB with KQs. Flop K22. I c/call his bet of 2k. turn is a 5. I c/c his 6k bet. River is a 7 and he checks AK behind.

1 round later Btn opens and I shove 88 in the BB - gets through and doesnt go to showdown

Ok so on to the hands which was 3 hands after the 88 hand above

Blinds @ 500/1000 with a 100 ante

Lady in MP makes it 4k I think Rita is her name if anyone knows her (reads are she is relatively tight but I did see her call raises with Ace rag suited and get it in on a flush draw flop) she has about 30k

Smurf flats on the BTN playing about 30k also

Im in the SB with 25k and look down at 10 10

action?

[Emmet]

Awhin baby

[Flushdraw]

Smurph's flat of a 4x open would worry me. I think she shoves AK and some smaller pairs and i'm not sure with AQs. She possibly 3bets AA-QQ unless she's giving you rope to squeeze from the blinds. I think she flats with 99-JJ. I'd ponder over this one and probably shove and then say to myself when she snaps and turns over the goods

[Donkathon]

$9.5k out there & you what about $21k left after the other hand?


edit: Oops misread the hand, not sure what to make of smurphs play here? surely she could be flatting with suited connectors here no?

[BigDeal]

Easy shove surely?

[ghostface]

Just looking for opinions on this - I was talking to a few people and opinions were divided so Im looking for the best line.

Im @ the table about 5 orbits and have been chipping up pretty nicely without showdown. I started off with 22k and had it up to 32k before I took a hit

@400/800 bad player makes it 2800 UTG and I peel in the BB with KQs. Flop K22. I c/call his bet of 2k. turn is a 5. I c/c his 6k bet. River is a 7 and he checks AK behind.

1 round later Btn opens and I shove 88 in the BB - gets through and doesnt go to showdown

Ok so on to the hands which was 3 hands after the 88 hand above

Blinds @ 500/1000 with a 100 ante

Lady in MP makes it 4k I think Rita is her name if anyone knows her (reads are she is relatively tight but I did see her call raises with Ace rag suited and get it in on a flush draw flop) she has about 30k

Smurf flats on the BTN playing about 30k also

Im in the SB with 25k and look down at 10 10

action?

I didnt realise that was who raised!! Fold all day long. Smurph flatting a very tight player that Rita is would have a min of AQ, JJ+. Def getting called in at least 1 spot I imagine and either racing or crushed

[Ruaction]

At first glance I would say that there appears to be lots of less than optimal play here, without meaning to insult anybody. Opening to 4x is a bad idea for lots of reasons. As it relates to you here, the first question I would ask you is, is MP making bigger opens (4x) with her strong hands than with her weaker hands or is her default open 4x. Both are bad imo. I think the former is probably more likely but in both cases it's indicative of someone opening pretty tight and probably has a pretty strong hand. Again, I don't know the player on the button flatting a 4x raise on the button out of that stack seems like an odd thing to do. She shouldn't really have suited connectors here donkathon, she's not getting anything like the right price against what we assume is a pretty strong hand from the original raiser, they just aren't deep enough. If the button has a strong hand then this is the ideal time to 3bet as she is likely to get action from the MP presumed tight open. I'm going to go ahead and say that the button has most likely got a midstrength hand like 66-99, KJ/KQ, AT-AJ, and is unsure what to do and so has flatted. I think it's unlikely that they're flatting with a big hand to induce action from the blinds.
Given your stack size and the opening raise size then I think this is a pretty automatic all in. You might not be way ahead of the MP's range but I think you are way ahead of the button's range. With the dead money and fold equity, as well as the strength of your hand I think you have to get it in, even though I wouldn't be shocked if the MP had you crushed. If you really thought she was that tight you could fold but I really find that hard to imagine, and calling is by far your worst option.
Obv I don't know the player's involved but that would be my thinking.

[Flushdraw]

At first glance I would say that there appears to be lots of less than optimal play here, without meaning to insult anybody. Opening to 4x is a bad idea for lots of reasons. As it relates to you here, the first question I would ask you is, is MP making bigger opens (4x) with her strong hands than with her weaker hands or is her default open 4x. Both are bad imo. I think the former is probably more likely but in both cases it's indicative of someone opening pretty tight and probably has a pretty strong hand. Again, I don't know the player on the button flatting a 4x raise on the button out of that stack seems like an odd thing to do. She shouldn't really have suited connectors here donkathon, she's not getting anything like the right price against what we assume is a pretty strong hand from the original raiser, they just aren't deep enough. If the button has a strong hand then this is the ideal time to 3bet as she is likely to get action from the MP presumed tight open. I'm going to go ahead and say that the button has most likely got a midstrength hand like 66-99, KJ/KQ, AT-AJ, and is unsure what to do and so has flatted. I think it's unlikely that they're flatting with a big hand to induce action from the blinds.
Given your stack size and the opening raise size then I think this is a pretty automatic all in. You might not be way ahead of the MP's range but I think you are way ahead of the button's range. With the dead money and fold equity, as well as the strength of your hand I think you have to get it in, even though I wouldn't be shocked if the MP had you crushed. If you really thought she was that tight you could fold but I really find that hard to imagine, and calling is by far your worst option.
Obv I don't know the player's involved but that would be my thinking.

I'd be really surprised if anyone of these hands are in Smurph's range for calling here (for those of us that know her)

[smurph]

few things bout this hand... (I'm the one on the button btw)
From my point of view, I had only played with Rita in the Fitz and she was a serious rock, but had been raising and turning over what I would consider very loose hands for her, she seemed in a bit more of a gambol gambol humour...

The table had been raising very big ie 4x the BB is the average raise tbh, I don't know if this is the norm in JP'S Monthly game but thats the way our table played....

I flatted Ritas raise for 2 reasons.

Firstly Rita is not one for doing continuation bets, and if felt i could take the hand off her post flop and

2ndly Tony had been very active since arriving at the table, and I reckoned if he smelt weakness he would ship his stack... I won't say my hand until there are more replies

[blaaaaaaah]

Was this lady opening alot herself? Or was she playing the call raises game hense giving her the look of an active player even tho she prob rarely opens the action pre?if not + with smurfs call I'd muck the 1010 no problem to me at all... These players are 4x ing for sport so obv there technical ability is pretty inferior to yours, your game plan should completely change with no risk poker as easy crush this game playing small ball alone.. Just need to work out how risky 1010 is here whether it's worth shove and by smurfs reply there I think smurf has a hand happy to call your all in, plus with the risk of original tight raiser it's a fold for me.

[Mellor]

I fold, smurph is up to something, she has KK imo

[Bubbleking]

yeah tbf Rita wasnt playing like that much of a rock. Shehad already peeled numerous raises pre and had opened once to 4x previously but didnt go to showdown.

I feel I am ahead of Smurf here a lot (flatting the raise pre told me she had AJ+ or 22-99. I think she 3bets all better hands) so if I can get the shove through the original raiser I was home and dry. Original raiser has a tough time calling with smurf behind her too which makes a squeeze better.

to all those who are saying fold do you also toss JJ here and AK?

[BigDeal]

[QUOTE=blaaaaaaah;351712 and by smurfs reply there I think smurf has a hand happy to call your all in, plus with the risk of original tight raiser it's a fold for me.[/QUOTE]

He didn't have the benefit of Smurph's reply at the time, don't think you should be taking it into consideration

Also, assuming you have a big edge because people are opening 4x is debatable and even if it is the case, you can't simply decide to outplay them with straightforward no risk poker in the later stages of a tourney when you have ~ 20bb

I'm still happy getting in here, button could be inducing but you're mostly only behind when she is inducing, and opener is in a tough spot with button to act behind

[Moneymaker]

I'm shoving. Nits.

[Guest]

tough spot here would really need to know something about the players in question here which obviously i dont... but i would think i would be shoving here most of the time but i dont hate a fold if you think smurph could be flatting here with AA/KK/QQ.. with the way the opening raises seem to be going (4xBB) you may find better spots than this..

[Downtown]

Shove Shove Shove.

Well Shove if you were online.

This seems a little different seen as the standard, judging by the action in this hands seems exploitable to say the least.

I would be still shoving though as I dont have it in me to fold given our stack size, blinds, theres a 4xer in there.

[Dice75]

Does the fact that the TD isn't going to let the average stack drop below 25bbs (replayed levels etc) not come into your thinking if you think you can exploit spots on the table in the long run?

[Closed_Account]

Yeah, as said Smurphs range is actually pretty tight here, like she defo has something ok but that said I dont think she always has a hand she is going to call a shove with. My gut reaction was shove, I havent really changed my mind but I dont think folding is too bad.

[peterswellman]

I think Smurphs flatting range here would be 88-JJ and AQ and AJ maybe. With that I think we shove here. And hopefully don't get snapped off my MP. WP Smurph if you were flatting a monster.

[blaaaaaaah]

He didn't have the benefit of Smurph's reply at the time, don't think you should be taking it into consideration

Also, assuming you have a big edge because people are opening 4x is debatable and even if it is the case, you can't simply decide to outplay them with straightforward no risk poker in the later stages of a tourney when you have ~ 20bb

I'm still happy getting in here, button could be inducing but you're mostly only behind when she is inducing, and opener is in a tough spot with button to act behind[/QUOTE]

Plz dude obv but she had posted so it was a reference to her... even with out it it's so obv Smurf does not waste chips flatting this tight womans 2nd open with medium pairs or uncertain aces!

Really why not? you should watch me play 20 bigs is loads live come on, you should be min raising these days so huge edge over a 4x person. It's still a fold to me especially now that Bubbleking has said what i suspected, she has been active calling raises but this is only her 2nd time to open herself.

[danutpeddler]

I get the money in here too.

[BigDeal]

Plz dude obv but she had posted so it was a reference to her... even with out it it's so obv Smurf does not waste chips flatting this tight womans 2nd open with medium pairs or uncertain aces!

Really why not? you should watch me play 20 bigs is loads live come on, you should be min raising these days so huge edge over a 4x person. It's still a fold to me especially now that Bubbleking has said what i suspected, she has been active calling raises but this is only her 2nd time to open herself.

I've only played with Smurph a couple of times so obv. don't know as much about her range here as you and others, does medium pairs include 88, 99?
Does uncertain aces include AQ, AJ?

We weren't told in OP that av. Stack was kept above 25bb, if this is the case then it's definitely a lot closer, still leaning towards a shove but can see the merit in folding.

[Bubbleking]

ok well thanks for the reply's everyone. I did consider folding but I just though I was giving up too much equity by doing so.

I shoved obv

Rita tank folds the AQ and smurf pretty much snaps with AK

Ace ball on the river to send me to the rail.

Not to disappointed with how I played it - I think I find a fold with 7's but 10's are just too strong and the last thought that went through my head before shoving was that I definitely wouldnt fold JJ there so 10's had to be a shove also

[blaaaaaaah]

I gotta disagree with your evaluation of the end result mate... Smurf was inducing and Rita pretty much open and folded the bottom of her range here. Gotta be a muck dude.

[Bubbleking]

I gotta disagree with your evaluation of the end result mate... Smurf was inducing and Rita pretty much open and folded the bottom of her range here. Gotta be a muck dude.

I dont think smurf was inducing - but thats just my opinion you'll have to ask her

[smurph]

Usually in this spot I would re-raise, I know Rita has a tight reputation but she didn't seem to be getting much cards, and in fairness raised light one or two times, and limped with very odd card (qc6c) etc.,

Tony had only been at the table 2 - 3 orbits... and had been quite active.. I flatted and had already made my mind up that I was calling a shove from Tony and tbh I thought he would ship with less than 10's (sorry my read way off there) and once Rita was mulling over it I was happy to call (obviousl if she snapped called him im folding)

Was my play bad? At the time I didn't think it was but maybe on hindsight im not sure

[8611]

Was my play bad? At the time I didn't think it was but maybe on hindsight im not sure

I don't think so at all. You're very likely to catch a lesser ace or king within BB's repushing range and can get away from hand if necessary and original raiser calls. from your description of the raiser you will easily be able to tell if she has a big pair or not and will prob be able to take pot down even if you don't hit. Seems pretty good approach to me and you'll be in control throughout.

Only danger would be if BB flats and then check raises a flop you miss.

[Closed_Account]

Your play is grand here Smurph, your thinking a few steps ahead ie Im defo snapping a push etc, thats one thing I have noticed playing live a lot lately and something I think you may be guilty of,peeps being almost aplogetic about playing a hand a little off the wall or making a wierd play, like people seem to be afraid to run a bluff or make a thin call for fear of what the masses feel is ok, dont worry about them, you know by this stage and by your results you have a decent edge in live fields, fook what people may think and have real confidence, real belief in your game. I dont care if some random goon thinks Im a headcase, I even prefer it, once Im happy making each possible decision according to what I feel is the best line.

[Moneymaker]

I don't mind your play Smurph.

I probably just 3bet for value, but flatting IP and looking to snap a shove is fine I think.