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I got a bit lost in this one...

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    I got a bit lost in this one...

    Hand is from the $33 DS(6k SS) 3k gtd on ipoker.

    No reads, avg 11.5k, 100/200/25.

    Hero(5.4k) opens to 480 with AcAs.

    CO(13k) and BB(24k) flat.

    Flop Kh, 10c, 6c. Pot: 1790.

    BB checks, hero bets 875 and both players flat. Pot: 4415 and hero has c.4k behind.

    Kd on the turn and it goes c/c/c.

    6h river and BB bets 2207.50.

    Hero?

    Thoughts on all streets?

    #2
    id bet more on the flop, a lot of people with get it all in with any king there, saying that when no one raises your bet id be inclined to put them on draws or possibly 10 10 for set.

    i probally call on the river simply as i dont see him betting a six here, more likely to check call imo

    Comment


      #3
      flop is a great spot to jam imo

      as for the river I think its a fold. You'd imagine the BB would have raised any draws on the flop which incidentally is now all you beat

      edit - wtf am I on about he could be vbetting worse obv which makes this closer
      Last edited by Bubbleking; 09-05-11, 01:18.

      Comment


        #4
        with a bet and call in front of him by the time the action gets back to the bb on the flop he may not ram his draws as he has to put one of them on a king, interesting spot all the same

        Comment


          #5
          River:
          i just dont think you are good here. i mean there isn't a huge amount of worse hands BB will be Vbetting if he decides to bet them at all so i weight his range way more towards hands that beat us than [bluffs + worse hands that vbet]

          ofc course it looks bluffy, but is it really a good spot for him to bluff into 2 players if he has any clue? i would also factor in my image and the other player's image. Has this player likely developed a read on us that makes him think he can bluff us off...seems a stretch but worth thought.

          He also bets half pot, I think he wants a call. It seems awfully weak but I think I chuck the aces here. fcuk me i am getting sick at the thought.

          Earlier Streets:
          pre: flop seems standard

          flop: def argument for betting more but dont think it makes a huge difference.

          turn: against 2 players i think you're kinda forced to to check and i would 98% of the time also. against 1 opponent i'd prob bet again but might check depending on my reads on the opponent.

          river
          pukecall: he has 66
          tankcall: he has JQo

          Comment


            #6
            All you can eat on the flop. You often get called by a K or by draw. Too many turn cards look yuk. Nice mon in pot already to pay your AA if you take it right there.

            Turn fine.

            River flip a coin.
            Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

            Comment


              #7
              Why does everyone want to shove flop? I dont get it so much. Id fold on the end.

              Comment


                #8
                I'd prob bet a little more on the flop. If you bet 875 and only get one caller your stack is kind of awkward on the turn.

                As played I check the turn and moan and most likely curse and then fold river.

                Edit: Am I reading some of the replies right saying shove the flop? I think this is pretty awful as you're shoving for almost 3x the pot? You're folding out all draws and weak kings and getting snapped by sets, 2 pairs etc.
                Last edited by thechamp87; 09-05-11, 15:21.

                Comment


                  #9
                  I bet more on the flop given the drawy nature of the board.

                  Turn fine.

                  River is ugh either way, I think I'd usually make a crying call because of all the missed draws (and I'm a station on the Mississippi, probably a throwback to my limit days). Actually I'd check my HUD stats on him first and then decide, but in a vacuum I think I make a crying call which may very well be bad. If the HUD stats indicated he ever bets rivers when he's not good I'd probably call, but if they suggested otherwise I would cry and fold I guess.
                  My poker blog - Doking around in cyberspace

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I wasn't happy with my flop bet either. One of those bets that had me thinking 'wtf did I do that for?' Then justified it to myself because I can still jam the turn but don't have it set up as well.

                    I would be interested in hearing the reasoning behind jamming the flop too?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Cant see any reason for jamming the flop at all.

                      Bet more on flop, around 1100.

                      Fold River.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by jbravado View Post
                        Why does everyone want to shove flop? I dont get it so much. Id fold on the end.
                        Because we're three way and our stack size is awkward and there are so many cards we don't want to see on the turn; a lurking unease with the situation is produced and going All - In takes all that away. And if you shove, get called and lose - it's a cooler / beat.

                        We all need to quell such desires. Making a hand easiest to play does not mean you are maximising EV. Shoving would be pretty awful.

                        -----------------------------------------------------

                        Just my thoughts:

                        I always check the turn in that spot, but I'm wondering if we should? Yes, we just got slammed by Kx but their ranges from preflop and flop has to include so many more things than that on that board. I think shoving the Turn has to have some merit.

                        On turn pot is 4365 and we have 4045 left. If you jam the turn, you will fold out some weaker hands that we may eke a bet out of on many rivers, however seems like a decent spot to try and force a mistake from our opponents? Maybe they look you up with a draw or a 10x that they really shouldn't?

                        That is really the argument for betting another 150 or so on the flop, because it sets up the pot sized turn shove a bit more comfortably / makes stack sizes slightly more favourable for us on turn and river.

                        As it is, on the river I always call here. () There are weaker one pair hands that a man wants to bet uber thin on sometimes after turn is checked through and the draws miss; leaving aside those draws that have missed. I expect to lose a lot obviously, but given the price you are being laid it seems like calling is the way to go here - as horrible as it is.
                        "Worldly wisdom teaches that it is better for reputation to fail conventionally than to succeed unconventionally." - John Maynard Keynes

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Turn push is infinitely worse than flop push imo. You will literally only be called by Ks or houses.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by doke View Post
                            I bet more on the flop given the drawy nature of the board.

                            Turn fine.

                            River is ugh either way, I think I'd usually make a crying call because of all the missed draws (and I'm a station on the Mississippi, probably a throwback to my limit days). Actually I'd check my HUD stats on him first and then decide, but in a vacuum I think I make a crying call which may very well be bad. If the HUD stats indicated he ever bets rivers when he's not good I'd probably call, but if they suggested otherwise I would cry and fold I guess.

                            what stats or combo of stats would help you figure this? I would be very interested to know?

                            (I still use my HUD in a very unsophistcated manner I am afraid and just use the main stats to get an idea of what i am up against)
                            tnx

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by 8611 View Post
                              Turn push is infinitely worse than flop push imo. You will literally only be called by Ks or houses.
                              That just can't be true given stack to pot ratio on either street.
                              "Worldly wisdom teaches that it is better for reputation to fail conventionally than to succeed unconventionally." - John Maynard Keynes

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Thats not the point. Youre looking at the hand from pot size perspective without thinking of what they're calling you with. Ks make up a decent amount of their calling range on the flop. This is good (though the push will scare most of them away). Every K is calling the turn. To push there is insane.

                                If you were sitting at the table and you saw someone doing this you'd think they were a complete donk. You're looking for someone to hero call you. People rarely hero call. And they're much less likely to call with a draw on the turn than on the flop. Turn push is insane.

                                I fold river as played absent a read that bettor is extremely gamey.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by 8611 View Post
                                  Thats not the point. Youre looking at the hand from pot size perspective without thinking of what they're calling you with. Ks make up a decent amount of their calling range on the flop. This is good (though the push will scare most of them away). Every K is calling the turn. To push there is insane.

                                  If you were sitting at the table and you saw someone doing this you'd think they were a complete donk. You're looking for someone to hero call you. People rarely hero call. And they're much less likely to call with a draw on the turn than on the flop. Turn push is insane.

                                  I fold river as played absent a read that bettor is extremely gamey.
                                  Sure, but they sometimes can't fold draws even though they know they should! There are loads of combos that are drawing on that turn which will give us no river value when they miss, and instead cost us a bet when they get there.

                                  Again, not buying language like "turn push is infinitely worse than flop shove" or "turn push is insane". I'm open to being convinced, but the above isn't getting me there.
                                  "Worldly wisdom teaches that it is better for reputation to fail conventionally than to succeed unconventionally." - John Maynard Keynes

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    shoving teh flop is the value. due to your stack size compared to villains they arent folding any K, any good draw or probably any pair because hero's push looks so much like a draw. basically what Im saying is that villains nearly have the exact same range for calling a shove as they do for peeling. Lots of turn cards may kill our action - bang it in now and win teh dollars. easy game

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      I don't mind shoving the turn at all, checking is ok too but there are far more combos of draws than kings on the turn, realistically they generally only have kq/kj and with that wet of a board there are a silly amount of draws. It may be true that when we are called we are usually beaten but far more often we simply win the pot without giving the draws a free river, and occasionally we get called by a stubborn ten.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Thanks for the input peops. Interesting how many different arguments can be made for this one. I tanked, cried and called to see 38cc for a busted FD. In the end I came to the conclusion that it is a good spot to bluff because of his stack size and the fact that both myself and CO rarely have a made hand. In saying that I think villain could turn up with the goods a fair bit of the time.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by bustamoves View Post
                                          what stats or combo of stats would help you figure this? I would be very interested to know?

                                          (I still use my HUD in a very unsophistcated manner I am afraid and just use the main stats to get an idea of what i am up against)
                                          tnx
                                          There's a stat (in PT at least) for (a) how often he bets rivers and (b) how often he wins at showdown when he bets.
                                          My poker blog - Doking around in cyberspace

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            This might sound lol horrible but....

                                            I think there is merit in just betting the turn, like 1100 or something. I think this saves us having to call these type bets on the river which could take the pot away from us and i dont think you'll get bluffed off your hand in that spot, this bet looks strong i think. Also you get some more value off the drawing hands in their range. I mainly do this to keep control of the hand.

                                            i realise im leaving my nose open to abuse with this suggestion

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              LOL at jamming OTF.. It may sometimes elicit a call from Kx, but we have a much greater chance of getting paid by simply cbetting and shoving OTT.

                                              As played I might call OTR without the player behind, but even then I figure to be behind pretty often vs BB after he smooth-called OTF.
                                              "c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"

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