SnG Multi - Final Table - Fold or Shove ?

[ProNutz Poker]

This happens me so often I get into this spot where I raise a pair like this 77-1010 get re-raised and I always debate a call/shove or fold given the same stack size - I have no previous with the villian at all. Am I right to shove these spots ?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 2.25 Tournament, 100/200 Blinds (6 handed)

BB (t4255)
Hero (UTG) (t4350)
MP (t2325)
CO (t1430)
Button (t12375)
SB (t2265)

Hero's M: 14.50

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9, 9
Hero bets t600, 2 folds, Button raises to t1000, 2 folds, Hero raises to t4350 (All-In), Button calls t3350

Flop: (t9000) K, 4, 4 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t9000) 4 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t9000) 7 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: t9000

[tiago]

I'd raise less pre, around 500 and fold to his weird not even min raise, nearly always aa or kk at low stakes.

In general if i'm raising in this situation with the pairs you mentioned i'm folding to a 3 bet, as again at low stakes people are rarely 3 betting weak in sng's. It's an awkward situaton stack size wise as I dont like shoving 22 bb'sish with those hands with 5 people behind you.

[Flushdraw]

I hate that particular shove. You showed strength by raising UTG for 1/7th of your stack when you're 2nd in chips. The chip leader min-raises from the button. I'd fold this pretty quick.

I know we have 22 BB but i'd be shoving most of my raising hands preflop. Half the table has <11BB and depending on reads, the chip leader might take a flier with a sub optimum hand.

[ProNutz Poker]

I hate that particular shove. You showed strength by raising UTG for 1/7th of your stack when you're 2nd in chips. The chip leader min-raises from the button. I'd fold this pretty quick.

I know we have 22 BB but i'd be shoving most of my raising hands preflop. Half the table has <11BB and depending on reads, the chip leader might take a flier with a sub optimum hand.

Yeah I see what you mean, I'm always gettin into this spot - really need to look at the whole picture a bit more. He had QQ for what its worth

[Laois Hammer]

BB (t4255)
Hero (UTG) (t4350)
MP (t2325)
CO (t1430)
Button (t12375)
SB (t2265)

with 99 id raise to 550 and call the stacks ive marked green and fold to the stacks in red.
having your decicions made before you raise is vital imo.

[whyno]

The min raise on the button stinks of strength. Deffo a fold for me in this spot

[ProNutz Poker]

BB (t4255)
Hero (UTG) (t4350)
MP (t2325)
CO (t1430)
Button (t12375)
SB (t2265)

with 99 id raise to 550 and call the stacks ive marked green and fold to the stacks in red.
having your decicions made before you raise is vital imo.

Yeah I really need to pay more attention to this, at times I just act without really thinking it through which is obv a major leak

[DrJFF]

with your stack raise folding is gay,

therefore with any hand

shoving>folding>raising

wat irish iron said is good advice esp with the shallow stacked nature deep in MTTs you shud know what your doing with each stack before you raise, obv you can change your mind mid hand but in general if i guy flats you with a 30BB stack you shud be thinking what flops will i bet? whats his flatting range?etc


anyways in this particular spot with 99 i would shove

[Mellor]

anyways in this particular spot with 99 i would shove

Why?
I'm not disagreeing with the move (I make it 500 btw), I just want to hear your reasoning for a 21bb AI UTG.

[Angry-Ball]

i play alot of these multitable sngs(45 man) and given the fact that it is 6 handed with blinds of 100/200 i would assume that there is 19/20 people left at this stage just before it goes down to 2 tables it gets a bit shove or fold. if you raise 3bbs and someone else puts you allin suddenly your 9's dont look great and you fold, if this is allowed to happen you are just spewing away chips.

[DrJFF]

Why?
I'm not disagreeing with the move (I make it 500 btw), I just want to hear your reasoning for a 21bb AI UTG.

i can see the merit of making it 500,

shoving here is with two nines is an unexploitable play, we are going to have to raise/call all stacks bar two if they shove on us, and we are just giving a competant opponent the chance to shove on you wide cos of the dynamics of the situation,

that is why

[Mellor]

i can see the merit of making it 500,

shoving here is with two nines is an unexploitable play, we are going to have to raise/call all stacks bar two if they shove on us, and we are just giving a competant opponent the chance to shove on you wide cos of the dynamics of the situation,

that is why

Do you think we ever get called by any hands we beat (I don't consider getting it in against AK as a hand we beat)? Are you happy with just picking up the blinds most of the time and getting stack more often than not when called?
I think we can get more out of 99

[bp_me]

How many positions off the bubble are you?

I know 99 should be a reasonable hand to play 6 handed but given stack sizes I wouldn't feel bad about dumping it and finding a better spot with a 20ish BB stack. UTG meh... I'ld prefer to open the button with practically any 2 and take the blinds in two hands time. You can afford to be a little patient here.

I don't like open shoving 20BB here as you are mostly called by 2 overs at a minimum though you have about 55% equity if you give a range of any broadways and any pair for calling an all in from the shorties. I don't think the button will want to call as light as that and you only have 35% against JJ+,AJs+,AKo (maybe that's a little tight but remember this player has 60BB and unless you have history with him and stats are saying otherwise they don't need to play a lot of hands right now). The only reason for him to min-re-raise is to build a bigger pot.

In this case flatting pre and shoving any flop can work at times. Of course without big cards on the flop you are never getting him to fold an over pair (and possibly worse depending on the player). In this specific case he at least has to consider if you have a K.


^^^^ This is why I can only luckbox my way to tourney wins obviously :'D

[gorrrr72]

i can see the merit of making it 500,

shoving here is with two nines is an unexploitable play, we are going to have to raise/call all stacks bar two if they shove on us, and we are just giving a competant opponent the chance to shove on you wide cos of the dynamics of the situation,

that is why

This is entirely exploitable unless you shove with all of your playable range. In fact it's entirely exploitable because better hands call and worse hands fold. Your opponents can play perfectly against you.

[DrJFF]

This is entirely exploitable unless you shove with all of your playable range. In fact it's entirely exploitable because better hands call and worse hands fold. Your opponents can play perfectly against you.

i shove anything i am willing to play in this spot, also your opponents will not know your shoving range,

and also if you honestly believe only better hands call LOL is all can say about that

[gorrrr72]

[QUOTE=DrJFF;30701]i shove anything i am willing to play in this spot, also your opponents will not know your shoving range,


and also if you honestly believe only better hands call LOL is all can say about that[QUOTE]

Most players will put you on a shoving range, and 99 fits in nicely into that range, unless your shoving AA KK too. And if you are, LOL.

I don't believe ONLY better hands call 100% of the time but I do believe you push out most of the worst hands and invite the better hands to call easily.

You're essentially advising going into push/fold mode with 25bb. I totally disagree with that.

[DrJFF]

[quote=gorrrr72;31055][QUOTE=DrJFF;30701]i shove anything i am willing to play in this spot, also your opponents will not know your shoving range,


and also if you honestly believe only better hands call LOL is all can say about that

Most players will put you on a shoving range, and 99 fits in nicely into that range, unless your shoving AA KK too. And if you are, LOL.

I don't believe ONLY better hands call 100% of the time but I do believe you push out most of the worst hands and invite the better hands to call easily.

You're essentially advising going into push/fold mode with 25bb. I totally disagree with that.

in certain instances i would advise going in pushing in optimal spots wit 25bbs, and i would shove AA/KK in these instances,

this hand as an example is one of them,

you don't have to agree/i don't expect you to agree/i don't care if you agree

[gorrrr72]

[quote=DrJFF;31064][quote=gorrrr72;31055]

i shove anything i am willing to play in this spot, also your opponents will not know your shoving range,


[B]and also if you honestly believe only better hands call LOL is all can say about that

in certain instances i would advise going in pushing in optimal spots wit 25bbs, and i would shove AA/KK in these instances,

this hand as an example is one of them,

you don't have to agree/i don't expect you to agree/i don't care if you agree

Fair enough (whether you care or not).