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    To call or not to call....

    Ok lads-first time posting a HH so go easy on me!
    I've tried converting this on Weaktight but not sure if ive done it right so here goes...

    Its from a Betfairpoker tournie,NL Texas Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee,
    Level:7 Blinds(100/200-25 ante) -
    $1,800 GTD NLNH Short Handed Turbo #353022

    Villain is SB and has been playing pretty loosely this far.

    No Limit Holdem Tournament
    Betfair
    6 Players
    Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

    Stacks:
    UTG (1,225)
    UTG+1 (1,763)
    CO (3,893)
    Hero (3,378)
    SB (2,588)
    BB (2,696)

    Blinds: 100/200

    Pre-Flop: (450, 6 players) Hero is BTN :kc: :jc:
    3 folds, Hero raises to 420, SB calls 320, 1 fold

    Flop: :2c: :as: :qd: (1,352, 2 players)
    SB checks, Hero checks

    Turn: :6c: (1,354, 2 players)
    SB checks, Hero bets 400, SB raises to 1,000, Hero calls 600

    River: :5s: (3,360, 2 players)
    SB bets 1,143, 1143 to Hero (1958)?


    So do i call? Or mores the point give me some feedback on my play here..dont hold back..i need to learn

    #2
    Shove pre, your turn play makes no sense to me.

    I doubt hes ever bluffing river as he can hardly expect you to fold now.

    Comment


      #3
      This hand is pretty bad IMO. You have nothing but K high, unless my eyes are playing tricks on me. There is no point to checking the flop and betting the turn here. Prob best to take the free card since you checked the flop. It would be a crazy call on the riv IMO. His reraise on the turn seem very strong and you should be done with the hand there, the way it played.

      If you Cbet the flop, and villain flats you can check the turn to see a winning riv(hopefully). Use your position to your advantage. IMO against a loose player, an ace high flop is the best for continuing as they rarley hold one.

      The river seems like you are never in front. Very rarley will you be winning with no pair. It looks like a crazy hero call for most of your stack too. Instant fold turn and riv...

      Comment


        #4
        You required a decent river card.

        Comment


          #5
          the raise pre is pretty sad you should be making it 600 imo

          checking the flop here makes your preflop steal attempt look very weak and i don't think your future steals will ever get much respect, you must cbet here 100% of the time

          betting the flush now is pointless if your oppenent calls you must give him a pair of some sort if the river comes a blank what are you going to do then?? check the river?? as it turns out he reraised you you should be folding here you don't have the chips to keep fishing.


          its a simple fold here i actually don't even know why you are asking what you should do here



          "Remember the time he ate my goldfish? And you lied and said I never had goldfish. Then why did I have the bowl, Bart? Why did I have the bowl?"

          Comment


            #6
            Pretty good spot to shove pre especially since you have both the blinds covered.


            As played if your going to bet the turn, shove it, betting 400 achieves nothing. Fold river

            eight- Ball, if we were doing a standard open, 600 is too much at this stage of the tourney, i'd make it 500 at most. Also it's a terrible board to c bet the flop when you have kj, prefer checking behind.

            Comment


              #7
              even of both blinds covered us we can shove KJs profitably with our stack pre so that's probably the route I take. That said if you do open then 420 is definitely better than 600. I bet the flop if I check the flop I check the turn tho as we can't ever really rep anything on the turn that we checked behind on the flop.

              Comment


                #8
                Ok cheers for the feedback.

                Ya i knew it was piss poor hand by me alright- but im still learning this game ,not playing that long/enough so i im prone to making some awful plays
                that said im doing ok ..and feel like im making some progress.

                For the record i called and he turned over JT so i took the pot down even though i played it horribly.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Shove preflop.
                  If you do have a stack where you can standard raise there is no harm 3x'n from the small blind and button and 2.7-2.2x from everywhere else. however no matter what stack you have in this spot you can profitably shove a wide wide range of hands because of the stacks the blinds have.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I shove pre as well, but the raise size you took is second best.

                    Id just check back the turn. If you bet to induce with K high, then its just far better to check back logically. Your K high beats all his bluffs anyway. Its way better to check back turn.
                    Foldaramus et foldarabimus

                    Comment


                      #11
                      ...
                      Last edited by Caf; 09-03-10, 17:59.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I keep hearing people say shove pre?

                        I take it you all mean shove all-in. Why would u do this with K J?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by MegaSin View Post
                          I keep hearing people say shove pre?

                          I take it you all mean shove all-in. Why would u do this with K J?
                          You can profitably shove a huge range once the blinds get big, your profit is in having the table fold, and still having good equity vs a calling range.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Ugghhh to the brag...

                            I shove pre
                            Last edited by wendelsailor; 09-03-10, 16:26.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Wager all of your remaining chips before the flop, in unlimited texas hold them you can do this at any time

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Flishie View Post
                                Was this post put up to show you made a good call with K high coz it makes no sense why you would want feedback on such a poor holding


                                Ya i went to the bother of putting this up looking for praise of the likes of you on this forum?!! Lol.


                                I put it up because im not an experienced poker player and i felt that i made the wrong moves all the way through leaving myself in a position where i shouldnt have been.
                                and as far as im aware this is a forum to post hands and receive feedback/critique???

                                And as many have already pointed out ,iit wasnt a good call IMO-regardless of the outcome.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by NoRiverRequired View Post
                                  Ya i went to the bother of putting this up looking for praise of the likes of you on this forum?!! Lol.


                                  I put it up because im not an experienced poker player and i felt that i made the wrong moves all the way through leaving myself in a position where i shouldnt have been.
                                  and as far as im aware this is a forum to post hands and receive feedback/critique???

                                  And as many have already pointed out ,iit wasnt a good call IMO-regardless of the outcome.
                                  apologies. But the hand is crazy IMO. I couldnt make sense of it all. the more i looked at it the worse it got. I was not thinkg earlier and will delete the post.

                                  For future reference, in that position where the villain has checked twice and reraises you on the turn it is usually a very strong hand. if you have have a good enough read of your opponent to make the call on the turn with K high then you should be pushing him all in there and then.

                                  apologies again. gl


                                  edit: turns out i can't delete that post

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    nicky o'd hand imo

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by phantom_lord View Post
                                      nicky o'd hand imo
                                      Dont get it but im pretty sure its not a compliment

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Flishie View Post
                                        For future reference, in that position where the villain has checked twice and reraises you on the turn it is usually a very strong hand. if you have have a good enough read of your opponent to make the call on the turn with K high then you should be pushing him all in there and then.
                                        This is not good advice. He doesnt look to have any fold equity so shoving the turn sucks. He call still call the turn raise though when he figures to have about 25% equity and hes getting over 4/1.

                                        Check the turn btw and lol at calling the river.
                                        Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                                        I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                                        None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Hero (3,378)
                                          SB (2,588)
                                          BB (2,696)

                                          Blinds: 100/200

                                          Ok maybe I am reading this wrong but shoving all in here?

                                          Anyone calls with an ace or a pair he is behind. I woulda thought the range that beats him vs the amount of chips he would lost would not make this a smart move.

                                          Again I am still learning (as we all are) but I just don't think risking all your chips for 300 in blinds when ur stack is 3378 is smart play. Plenty of play left in the game to pick better moments for this kind of shove.

                                          And I know I am worng for the amount of people who came on here and said shoving is right.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Starvin Marvin View Post
                                            This is not good advice. He doesnt look to have any fold equity so shoving the turn sucks. He call still call the turn raise though when he figures to have about 25% equity and hes getting over 4/1.

                                            Check the turn btw and lol at calling the river.
                                            I think you missed the point i was trying to make. If a different card comes on the riv, any card at all, is the hero going to fold? i dont think he does since he called so weak anyway. The pot odds are irrelevant to the what I'm saying. I think the hero, in this case will call whatever the riv card is coz he clearly thinks KJ is good. he's not going anywhere so shoving the turn is just as effective IMO. I might be wrong here but I dont see much difference where the chips go in. at least he can prevent a suck out.
                                            It just a horrible hand.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              I think you missed my point, of course if you brick the river you fold. You have king high and the villain has shown strength.
                                              Hero has a big draw on the turn with a lot of equity.

                                              If hero thinks KJ is good on the river then hes not very good poker and will lose long term making calls like that.
                                              Originally posted by ArmaniJeans
                                              I like this heat - some proper music innit.
                                              None of the 'black disabled lesbian warbling backwards' stuff that the other players inflicted on me.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by MegaSin View Post
                                                Hero (3,378)
                                                SB (2,588)
                                                BB (2,696)

                                                Blinds: 100/200

                                                Ok maybe I am reading this wrong but shoving all in here?
                                                Yes its a great spot for an all in.

                                                Anyone calls with an ace or a pair he is behind.
                                                Thats only 20% of the hands, that means theres alot of folding in these spots, not to mention the fact most people arent calling with weak aces, small pairs. Also we have card removal for some of the KK, JJ, AK, AJ that are part of the calling percentage.

                                                I woulda thought the range that beats him vs the amount of chips he would lost would not make this a smart move.

                                                Again I am still learning (as we all are) but I just don't think risking all your chips for 300 in blinds when ur stack is 3378 is smart play. Plenty of play left in the game to pick better moments for this kind of shove.
                                                Its a big leak in your game if you think you have alot of play with this stack.


                                                And I know I am worng for the amount of people who came on here and said shoving is right.
                                                I reckon you should watch the sheets lectures on pxf to understand why these are the perfect spots to be looking out for.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  I think preflop is ok, but shoving is fine too.

                                                  Turn is a mistake. I'd either bet the flop and be done with the hand or check back the turn too. Betting the turn achieves nothing and when you get check raised it sucks.
                                                  Looking for full or part time poker and betting writers. PM if interested.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Irish Iron would you not get the same result betting 5times the blind maybe. Not putting your whole stack out there leaving you thr chance to fold.

                                                    Maybe I'm just super tight I don't know.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by MegaSin View Post
                                                      Irish Iron would you not get the same result betting 5times the blind maybe. Not putting your whole stack out there leaving you thr chance to fold.

                                                      Maybe I'm just super tight I don't know.
                                                      is that a joke?

                                                      raising 5bbs and folding to 13bb is the would be so horrible.

                                                      if your raising you should be raise calling not raise folding against these stacks.

                                                      if you did make your raise to 1000 (which is already a pretty bad idea 5x'ing it)
                                                      + 2600 (the bb stack)
                                                      + 100 (the sb)

                                                      = a pot already of 3700 where you have to call 1600.

                                                      your getting over 2/1 where you only need 6/4 (your over 60/40 against a good part of his range)

                                                      if you have to raise call its sometimes better to just shove, because he folds some of the hands if reshoves with.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Irish Iron View Post
                                                        I reckon you should watch the sheets lectures on pxf to understand why these are the perfect spots to be looking out for.
                                                        What are these sheet lectures on pxf? I wouldn't mind giving them a look. Anything to increase the knowledge! If you could give me a link or tell me how to find them it would be appreciated.

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          I see your point here. And I have noticed a big leak in my game is the button not knowing how to raise to right amount.

                                                          Personally I just hate K J.

                                                          So it looks like this Shove>fold>raising a decent amount.

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            I prefer opening to 450 rather than shuving

                                                            You've a cbet left in your stack before you're down to 10 bbs

                                                            As played chk back turn and fold river

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Flishie View Post
                                                              What are these sheet lectures on pxf? I wouldn't mind giving them a look. Anything to increase the knowledge! If you could give me a link or tell me how to find them it would be appreciated.
                                                              il put up the links the ones im talking about tomorow, are you a subsriber already on pokerxfactor if not you wont be able to watch the vids

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                improve your bet sizing 101;
                                                                1. Keep raising amounts consistant regardless of hand in the early stages
                                                                2. Raise less in the mid to late stages, 4bb is no better than 2.5bb
                                                                3. Shove lighter in the late stages

                                                                Comment

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