BVB Shoving ranges

[danutpeddler]

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 5000/10000 Blinds 1000 Ante (6 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO (t744649)
Button (t173440)
Hero (SB) (t220497)
BB (t503895)
UTG (t295012)
MP (t454241)

Hero's M: 10.50

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8, K
4 folds, Hero bets t219497 (All-In),

I'm 8/12 in the 33k on tilt. 250 for 8th 7k for first.

What's your shoving range here?

[Emmet]

what are blinds / antes?

[danutpeddler]

what are blinds / antes?

Sorry I edited there. I've 21 bigs

[lashrlog]

any reads on bb? 22bb seems a bit much to be shoving here. def shipping it <15

[digiman]

Shoving anything is total spew here. You are tooo deep to open shove.

[lashrlog]

whats your line here? r/f?

[danutpeddler]

any reads on bb? 22bb seems a bit much to be shoving here. def shipping it <15

He was good and we had a decent bit of history. I was thinking he reships a good chunk, all pairs j10+ (maybe even 78ss+) especially considering stacks.

I had his calling range much tighter a8+ 66+

I don't like raise folding so it's shove or fold here. Think it may be a fold.
Been watching a good vids from doubledave22 and ajkhoosier they seem to shove here all the time.

[digiman]

whats your line here? r/f?

Given the reads below I just fold

[AndyFatBastard]

Raise/folding is fine here as long as you haven't already established a dynamic with him. This sounds like a good opportunity to start one.

Edit: If you know he's gonna ship it light then just let him have this one.

[AKQJ10]

If i was the bb and you raised to say 25000, id find it hard not to re-shove any connecting cards given the payouts. Id cram your hand for sure 21k out there, doubt he calls with less than the range you said, could even be tighter

[AndyFatBastard]

What were the stacks like on the other table? There's an argument for waiting until the FT when the payouts really start to jump before shipping this light.

[cardshark202]

Shoving can't be too bad. Def don't like raise/folding. Would raise small only with hands I planned to snap it off with, otherwise I prefer to just fold.

[bops]

I had his calling range much tighter a8+ 66+

That's a fair enough calling range imo, except for two very important hands considering your hand - KQ and KJ

[danutpeddler]

If i was the bb and you raised to say 25000, id find it hard not to re-shove any connecting cards given the payouts. Id cram your hand for sure 21k out there, doubt he calls with less than the range you said, could even be tighter

My thoughts exactly Marc. I tried to give him as wide a calling range as possible and still it's only 10%.

He had 1010 and no suck out.

I'd love to know doke and feargal's (the Range Rovers) thoughts on optimal plays in this spot.

Have I got a little too much with 22bigs?
How do you factor in, us being 6 handed?
Do you guys factor in, that it's folded to bvb in the first place?


I've walked into the hand a good few times recently in this spot (with 15 - 20bbs) and don't want to become a results based drooler tbh

[danutpeddler]

As much geeky maths as possible pls

[Line Us]

Have you looked at the HeadsUp Nash Equilibrium, when its folded to you in the sb its bascially like a hu sng so u can use the push/fold charts to know what is optimal. The problem is though that this assumes the bb calls optimally too which obviously isn't always the case. Worth a look anyway http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sngs/hune.html

If you know the exact range he calls with then you can do an ev calculation to see what range you should be shoving. 6 max doesn't come into it when its sb vs bb. All this has been solved already though so all you really want for these situations is sitngo wizard. Put in the hand history and it suggests whether its a push/fold and it also gives the ranges that are optimal to push when you know what range the bb calls with. Here is the outcome when I put in the hand history and gave the bb a calling range of 9%(66+,a10o+). He needs to be calling with only about 7% for the shove to be +ev so thats (88+,a10s+).



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[Keane]

/subscribe

[theshortstack]

I snap shove here nearly 100% of the time, if I think he is spewy I might not but really your K is ahead of his bb range most of the time and like you said your in 8th of 12 with $250 for 8th and 7k for first, you want a stack you can win the tournment with hitting the ft you dont want to fold these steel spots when you have a strong hand 6 handed, if he calls and we are live were in a 60/40 for a big stack but he wont be calling you wide here. I usually only shove 18-20 with antes but i think 22 here is fine since he can 3bet us light in the bb but cant call our shove light.

[smoothcall]

Good post Liney, when I read it first I thought 22 bigs was too big. I also think your man would call wider than 9%, I certainly wouldn't pass 66,77, A9s, KQs. Does that first thing(nash) take into account antes? like whats dead money?

There could be still merit to raise folding imo, depending on how aggro he is I guess. like if you make it 25,000, he only has to fold 50% of the time to be profitable.

[Mellor]

Good post Liney, when I read it first I thought 22 bigs was too big. I also think your man would call wider than 9%, I certainly wouldn't pass 66,77, A9s, KQs. Does that first thing(nash) take into account antes? like whats dead money?
.

It could do, no reason why not.
But I don't see where there are in that example. Antes are an extra 40% og the pot here so could swing it

[Kenny]

Have you looked at the HeadsUp Nash Equilibrium, when its folded to you in the sb its bascially like a hu sng so u can use the push/fold charts to know what is optimal. The problem is though that this assumes the bb calls optimally too which obviously isn't always the case.

is it not the case that if he deviates from the optimal call/fold strategy that our strategy is still +ev?

[Line Us]

Good post Liney, when I read it first I thought 22 bigs was too big. I also think your man would call wider than 9%, I certainly wouldn't pass 66,77, A9s, KQs. Does that first thing(nash) take into account antes? like whats dead money?

There could be still merit to raise folding imo, depending on how aggro he is I guess. like if you make it 25,000, he only has to fold 50% of the time to be profitable.

Don't think nash takes antes into consideration, its more for husng's. But its a usefull guide for shoving when you get less than 15bbs sb vs bb I think anyway.

I think I wouldn't be shoving here (22bbs deep) either tbh even if sngwizard said its a slightly +ev push. I'd take your line and go with having just a raise calling/folding range. The main problem I'd have with jamming is that if this hand was put up and we had qq/kk/aa/ak then I'd say very few would be saying just jam, there is too much value lost when somone 3bets/jams us light. If he realises/thinks that we are not shipping in the top of our range then he will be calling here way lighter than 66+ a10+. If the villian was not 3betting much or is any way bad post flop then id say k8o is fine to steal with but if he's aggro/good then I'd just fold.

is it not the case that if he deviates from the optimal call/fold strategy that our strategy is still +ev?

Say we are 10bbs deep and he folds more then optimal then what your saying is true and all the hands that the chart says shove are still +ev, however more hands should come into our shoving range and then the opposite if he calls more. There will definitely be hands at the bottom of our range that are shoves/folds vs different villians. Probably not many though unless the villian is extremely nitty or a station but we should adjust our range for the villian if we think he isn't calling optimally.

Another think about that nash chart is for the 20bbs+ calling range the chart gives the villian a pretty wide calling range, I don't think this really applies in practise because most people dont shove all there range when 20bbs deep in the first place, they are still going to be minraising or whatever. Its more uselfull when we are shallower than here and mainly as a guide really.

[Wombatman]

If you are not folding here you should take the same opening line as you would with AA, KK or QQ. That's why I would never shove here.

Raising here with K8o is much the same as raising with air. It has little to do with our holding and everything to do with villain. OP should be telling us all about the villain, how he has been playing and the table dynamics. The K8o is of little relevance.

I don't consider K8o a legitimate raising hand here based of push-bot stuff but that's not to say we shouldn't raise with it.

[cardshark202]

You don't want to take the same line as you do with QQ-AA. That's madness. Don't be worrying about balance vs random donkament players you'll never see again. You would take a raise/call line with AA cos you think he can possibly reshove light. You do NOT want him to do that. I think a shove has way more FE in this spot. Also there's 10% of our stack in the middle, which is enough to make shoving worthwhile.

IMO: Shoving>>Folding>>>>Raising Small

[Strewelpeter]

...
Do you guys factor in, that it's folded to bvb in the first place?

Any opinions on this bit?

[Line Us]

You don't want to take the same line as you do with QQ-AA. That's madness. Don't be worrying about balance vs random donkament players you'll never see again. You would take a raise/call line with AA cos you think he can possibly reshove light. You do NOT want him to do that. I think a shove has way more FE in this spot. Also there's 10% of our stack in the middle, which is enough to make shoving worthwhile.

IMO: Shoving>>Folding>>>>Raising Small

I'm not worrying or talking about balance at all, I'm just saying that a shove here wont be QQ+ from us often so the villian will call our shoves wider which will make hands like k8o a fold pre against most, we wont have the fold equity we need to make it +ev. 22bbs is too deep to have a shoving range unless your up against a complete nit imo.

[Midnitekowby]

without goin into the maths of it, instinctivly i think its too big a shove here.

i use charts based on m(blinds and antes). Same as those pxflads use. These charts are just based on chip equity though, as in a winner take all scenario and obv presume he is calling optimumly

youve a m of 10 here which gives a shoving range of -22+ Ax+ K2s+ K6o+ Q2s+ Q8o+ J2s+ J8o+ T4s+ T7o+ 95s+ 97o+ 84s+ 87o 74s+ 76o 64s+ 53s+

his optimum calling range would be a6o, a3s, k10o, 55s

but again this gives u a + chip profit, and as you stack grows every chip gained decreases in value. Hidden in those stats is a % of times where you bust the tornament and that makes the difference for me. i much prefer this stax for the leverage of fold eq. it provides when pushing over a aggro lp raise

if this was a 9 handed table ur m would be 9 but i find shoving m9+ too much(been doin group coaching sessions with ajk + dd and dont see them shovin here either), obv a very tricky stax size for opening. i dont like open folding with this stax at all, and find the shove too much. but ya k8 too good to let go bvb..

As mentioned b4, your dynamics with this guy are important here, whats is his 3bet freq here? does he give up on flops or play back, at this stage of a tornie i usually have the full table opr'd, find out how much the $$$ jumps means to them.

Interesting how no one mentioned completing here. Sometimes, usually early doors at a table, i like to see how the bb will react to a limp, some guys just auto raise, some check and obv miss most flops, u can take with a 1/2 pot bet and show good profit here, finding out these tendancies early can obv be hugly exploitable later in spots like these..like the guy who insta auto raises u can easily limp 4bet jam here and alot of the time villians freezes thinkng hes trapped by a monster...

if ur really not comfortable playing the pot like this oop, find the shove too much, and raise folding pretty rank then looks to me like a muck, no biggie, next hand could give u much better options

[doke]

Good post Liney, when I read it first I thought 22 bigs was too big. I also think your man would call wider than 9%, I certainly wouldn't pass 66,77, A9s, KQs. Does that first thing(nash) take into account antes? like whats dead money?

There could be still merit to raise folding imo, depending on how aggro he is I guess. like if you make it 25,000, he only has to fold 50% of the time to be profitable.

Yeah, raise folding's not horrible imo, but I'd need some sort of idea that the guy ever folds. I don't raise fold very much at these stacks: my raising range is balanced between monsters that snap the shove and attempted steals against selected targets.

The shove is too much imo. Depending on how much he folds it may be marginally +cEv but I can't see how it can be +$Ev when you factor in ICM. I'd shove up to 15 bigs or so.

Most of the time I just fold. With that stack I'm primarily looking for reshoves over suspected light openers rather than open shoves.

I agree with Kowboy's thoughts on limping. When the stacks are deeper I generally like to test how the BB will react. Many live players in particular will let you get away with limping. Others will autoraise. Either way you'll get some idea of the raising range. If I know someone is an autoraiser, I'd prefer to limp K8 and jam over their raise than open jam at this stack as that way there's a bit more meat in the pot if the steal works.