Early tourney river spot

[LTL]

Game is €200 + €20 deepstack freezout on a french network and with 95% of players being french the standard is poor.

Only point i can make on villian is he doesn't mind calling preflop oop light based on first 40 hands. He also notable c/r oop to a cbet vs another player with a flush draw and got there on the river.

My image would be very aggro over first 2 levels due to having cards but have not shown down much

Hero : 4350
Villian: 8000
Blinds: 20/40

Hero utg: QQ

I open to 110 , folded to button who calls, and BB (villiain) who calls.

Flop: 6s4d7c
pot: 350
Villain checks, i bet 240, button folds, BB calls.

Turn: Js

Villain checks , i bet 490, villain calls.

River : 6s pairing the board and completing the backdoor flush.

Villain leads for full pot of 1810, hero???

I think the river is a reasonable ok card as i think it's unlikely i'm being called down by 6x hands. Don't think flop sets play this way much and straights missed.

It's still very early in the game and calling and losing will cripple us down to 1500. River call/fold?

[AndyFatBastard]

I'd probably call but I don't feel good about it. He looks full of shit but I guess he can have a lot of better hands too.

Edit: I don't mind a hero fold either. If he's really bad he's always got a full house or a flush here.

[bustamoves]

oh God, looks horrible but i would still call.

def expecting to be shown a better hand here a fair bit but can see him playing a hand he thinks is good (if he's bad) and outright bluffing enough for to make this a call.

[Flushdraw]

I prefer checking back the turn.

As played, i don't like calling. I could call looking through my fingers, or i could easily fold. I can see 56 making up a large part of his range here, also A5ss is a possibility. It's a sick bluff if that's what it is. Meh, i think i fold seeing as we're still at the early stages of the tournie rather than make a hero call

[Mellor]

Check back turn and I like to think I fold now (although, I might make the argo call depending on mood)
Just can't ever see this being a bluff

[LTL]

I understand the reasoning for checking behind the turn for pot control but in this case i'm not sure i agree it's the right thing to do. First of all I'm betting for value as i think a lot of the time I get called by much worse hands like 88,99,10 10 which i feel with a river blank like in this example i can often get 3 streets of value from.

However more often i'm giving a free card to 1 pair,and 5X type hands including 5 7, 5 6 which are often drawing to 8 outs.

I feel more often than not by checking the turn I'm giving a free card to a draw in a spot where, if bet, i can either pick up the pot on the turn or charge a draw in which a bad river can be reevaluated and often checked behind. Should the river be a sick 8s I can fold to pressure having bet the turn as a villain river lead would be super strong but i don't think there's too much wrong with betting the turn when your often a 80% fav.

I have no problem if my thinking is completely wrong here so please criticize it because i still feel i have major leaks in my mtt game. I just feel in this situation my hand is strong enough to barrel the turn with what i don't think is a marginal hand.

[bustamoves]

i dont get why people are advocating checking back the turn tbh? i'd like to hear tho. i mean we miss so much value vs a large chunk of his range (if we check turn) surely.

[Wombatman]

Bet more pre vs poor players. 150 is good. Early on, deep they will call <3bb with most everything in the sb and bb.

Flop and turn bets could be a little bigger but the line is fine. Too much value lost checking turn here.

His bet size along with the river card is a total mare. You see a combo of flopped sets, flopped straights, trips, and flushes more often here than you see a bluff. Yes fish play flopped monsters this way all the time. They bet with nothing and check when strong. It be part of the fish mindset. I played Everset for a couple of years and the French fish is pretty fishy.

Fold. Because of the bet size pre we cant narrow his holding pre to anything other than ATC so we cant rule out funky hands like 85, 36, etc.

We still have a good stack so all the better if he is bluffing here as you are sure to get them back later with this type of player.

[Flushdraw]

i dont get why people are advocating checking back the turn tbh? i'd like to hear tho. i mean we miss so much value vs a large chunk of his range (if we check turn) surely.

I'm only betting the turn if we're willing to get all the chips in (probably would, but smallish ball early on in a deepstack is better strategy imo) The OP says that the villain has already C/R OOP with a flushdraw previously, so if we bet the turn, we need to know what we're doing if he C/R. I just don't want to play a huge pot this early in a deepstack so would prefer to check back for pot control. If we call his C/R on the turn, i'm hating life if he fires big on any scare cards for us, which is a good % of the deck

[Daragh999]

Well played hand, fold river unless you have seen that the villan is a nutjob and capable of spaz bluffs. Lol being on a french network i really want to say snap call but i don't see the villian buffing often here at all especially given he potted it. And for anyone suggesting it, not betting the turn given were probably ahead 95%+ here is pretty bad. If he does C/R which i wuldn't expect often he has us beat always so its an easy fold, i seriously doubt very early on in a €220 online tourney someone is running some elaborate float and C/R the turn bluff.

[Moneymaker]

Checking the turn is madness, never checking there. It's a safe turn card and we're losing tonnes of value checking here.

I'm folding the river, he shows up with 54s, 78s, T7s type hands here a lot. 65, A5 all possible also. Can't see you ever being good here.

[Raheny Red]

6s comes out twice

[peterswellman]

I think the turn check is fine, it not only controls the pot, it undereps our hand and allows us to get value from one pair hands that we crush. I think a hand like Queens is very hard to get three streets of value with a hand like QQ on a board like this.

Folding river I reckon.

[Keane]

I can't see how checking the turn makes any sense at all.

The villains line has a massive number of draws in it, and for some reason we're giving the moniker "pot control" to the act of "letting the villain fill up for free".

There's no way people would be saying check the turn if OP had posted as far as the villain checking the turn and asked how to proceed - all that's happening here is people are seeing the difficult decision on the river and blaming the turn for it imo.

[TheDrunkenOne]

I am thinking AJ, JJ, here as well...

have no prob with betting pattern and feel hes shoving for value hoping to appear as a maniac steal

I go bollox and fold at this stage as with AJ he be check caling l feel or check raise !! and go therefore for trips /FH or Ax s

[peterswellman]

I can't see how checking the turn makes any sense at all.

The villains line has a massive number of draws in it, and for some reason we're giving the moniker "pot control" to the act of "letting the villain fill up for free".

There's no way people would be saying check the turn if OP had posted as far as the villain checking the turn and asked how to proceed - all that's happening here is people are seeing the difficult decision on the river and blaming the turn for it imo.

Far from it. There are tons of one pair hands that a big blind might complete with that we are getting value from by checking the turn. We underrep our hand with a turn check it may get us called by worse.

[Keane]

Far from it. There are tons of one pair hands that a big blind might complete with that we are getting value from by checking the turn. We underrep our hand with a turn check it may get us called by worse.

Most of those one pair hands will probably fold to two more bets, but they're as likely to call a turn bet as a river bet IMO.

I'd be getting my value out of those hands, as well as the drawing hands, on the turn here all day long.

A fish isn't going to fold what to him will be a blank turn with too many of the one pair hands he check-called the flop with IMO.

[peterswellman]

Most of those one pair hands will probably fold to two more bets, but they're as likely to call a turn bet as a river bet IMO.

I'd be getting my value out of those hands, as well as the drawing hands, on the turn here all day long.

A fish isn't going to fold what to him will be a blank turn with too many of the one pair hands he check-called the flop with IMO.

I think by double barrelling we fold out alot of hands we get value out of by checking behind. I reckon, we check turn we may induce a bet with worse on the river or get someone to call our bet with worse. I can see how you double barrell but villains range on the flop is much, much wider than a flush draw IMO.

[peterswellman]

Straight draw obv.

[Keane]

I think by double barrelling we fold out alot of hands we get value out of by checking behind. I reckon, we check turn we may induce a bet with worse on the river or get someone to call our bet with worse. I can see how you double barrell but villains range on the flop is much, much wider than a flush draw IMO.

You also give the villain a beautiful opportunity to bluff, as he can get us to fold a ton of hands on any 3/5/6/7/8 or spade river. He can put us to a pretty tough decision with an Ace peeling off as well.

[peterswellman]

You also give the villain a beautiful opportunity to bluff, as he can get us to fold a ton of hands on any 3/5/6/7/8 or spade river. He can put us to a pretty tough decision with an Ace peeling off as well.

Then when we check it just means we should be calling alot more. We're going to fold alot on those rivers anyway even if we bet the turn.

[digiman]

I'm defo betting turn, no idea why you would ever check back here vs a frog

[Closed_Account]

I'm defo betting turn, no idea why you would ever check back here vs a frog

Plus one million-checking back the turn is mad imo.

[LTL]

Ok well I made the fishy river call because I was so confused by villains line and was shown 7s 8s for a rivered back door flush having called open ended on the flop. I'm convinced after only playing 50 hands vs villain that he was calling the turn openended had he not improved to a flush draw aswell anyway and betting the turn here was fine vs him. Not sure i accept the arguement of we shouldn't bet the turn here cuz what do we do if he c/r's because the % of the time this happens is so small compared with the amount of times we get flatted by a hand we have massive value against and anyway a lot of the time i'm simple folding to a turn c/r as his line would now be super strong and can't see myself ever calling a big river bet.

The river really is a simple enough fold for me and a bad call in hindsight as villain was really never good enough to be making some elaborate river bluff here but i just couldn't make sense of it at the time.

[Caf]

What site is this on?

Also,

6s comes out twice

What's the story here?

[Raheny Red]

What site is this on?

Also,



What's the story here?

The OP has the 6s on the flop and on the river...........

[fumyname]

Wp op. Just unlucky.

Bet sizing is lovely and never ever checking turn on that board,

however a full pot sized river bet is allways ugly, can see reasonung for calling i.e nutcase but were never usually good here.

[Caf]

The OP has the 6s on the flop and on the river...........

Maybe I put it wrong but I was asking OP, who was online at the time, what the story was with 2 6s in the hand. I find it a bit strange that your comment wasn't answered too.

[bustamoves]

Ok well I made the fishy river call because I was so confused by villains line and was shown 7s 8s for a rivered back door flush having called open ended on the flop. I'm convinced after only playing 50 hands vs villain that he was calling the turn openended had he not improved to a flush draw aswell anyway and betting the turn here was fine vs him. Not sure i accept the arguement of we shouldn't bet the turn here cuz what do we do if he c/r's because the % of the time this happens is so small compared with the amount of times we get flatted by a hand we have massive value against and anyway a lot of the time i'm simple folding to a turn c/r as his line would now be super strong and can't see myself ever calling a big river bet.

The river really is a simple enough fold for me and a bad call in hindsight as[B] villain was really never good enough to be making some elaborate river bluff here but i just couldn't make sense of it at the time.

just a couple of things. i think u are unfair on yourself to describe it as a fishy call. having read the hand again and what others have posted i do think its a fold now all things considered (personally i hadnt realised it was 200+20 euro buy-in when i first read the hand but that is not the point of my post) but i certainly think you will make or have made much worse calls in your time. i mean i think you can be happy that you played the hand very well up to that point.

secondly, with regard to assement of why you called (and by extension why you shouldnt have). villian 'not good enough to make an elaborate bluff' would be much less pertinent than villain being 'bad enough to spazz out on this river'. i think it's important to realise the difference here.

[Raheny Red]

Maybe I put it wrong but I was asking OP, who was online at the time, what the story was with 2 6s in the hand. I find it a bit strange that your comment wasn't answered too.

Ah right sorry, got the wires crossed there. Obviously it makes a big difference as to how we go about with the hand.

[LTL]

Sorry, I'm happy to say i'v been in Miami for the past 4 days so haven't been online. The 6s twice was a typo, flop was a rainbow and the 6c sorry.

[AKQJ10]

100% bet turn miss out out on so much value. Id make it 120 pre but 110 is fine really. Flop bet size is fine id bet more on turn tho like 590. Doubt your ahead on the river tbh. Most likely has 56/78s

Edit - Just saw results, would have been nice to have posted pre results

[smoothcall]

I'm only betting the turn if we're willing to get all the chips in (probably would, but smallish ball early on in a deepstack is better strategy imo) The OP says that the villain has already C/R OOP with a flushdraw previously, so if we bet the turn, we need to know what we're doing if he C/R. I just don't want to play a huge pot this early in a deepstack so would prefer to check back for pot control. If we call his C/R on the turn, i'm hating life if he fires big on any scare cards for us, which is a good % of the deck

Disagree with bolded bit, I think bet/fold the turn is the best line. Not many players (especially bad players) are gonna check-raise the turn on a bluff/ semi-bluff, we only have 60/65% ish equity vs some of those hands anyway.

There's a huge difference in check raising the flop vs a c bet with a flush draw (fairly basic strategy) to check calling with the flop a reasonable hand and check raiseing the turn on a semi bluff, even if you've improved imo. and in a lower standard tourny I def bet the turn for value and protection.

[cardshark202]

Turn but is a necessity. People saying to check back turn are being ridiculously results orientated. Full pot river donk is always a strong hand. I think you can fold and feel good about it.