Pokerstars 6 max 10kgtd turbo

[Downtown]

Dont have the hand history but is this just a standard re-ship?

No real reads, just moved to table. 68 players left, 48 cash. Avg 22k

Blinds 400-800, ante 100

Hero in Sb with 18k

Villian UTG +1 makes it 2400 (20k)

Folded to me, I have AJ??

Is this a insta ship?

[digiman]

Dont have the hand history but is this just a standard re-ship?

No real reads, just moved to table. 68 players left, 48 cash. Avg 22k

Blinds 400-800, ante 100

Hero in Sb with 18k

Villian UTG +1 makes it 2400 (20k)

Folded to me, I have AJ??

Is this a insta ship?

I wouldn't ship here personally, but probably a bit like you in that I am not 100% sure whats the correct play. I'd imagine it's pretty close either way.

Actually nevermind, thought it was a 9max table for some reason. I'm allin here

[Wombatman]

Very much depends on villians stats. Fold or shove fine.

[Caf]

Dont have the hand history but is this just a standard re-ship?

Is this a insta ship?

Why would it be an insta ship or anywhere near a standard one?

We have AJ, 22.5bb and are facing an ep raise from an unknown.

I would flat or fold before ever shipping, more than likely folding unless it's soooooooted since we oop and shallow stacked. We need a read to make this a reship imo.

[shrapnel]

if i've just moved to the table i'm folding this personnally.

[Downtown]

Why would it be an insta ship or anywhere near a standard one?

We have AJ, 22.5bb and are facing an ep raise from an unknown.

I would flat or fold before ever shipping, more than likely folding unless it's soooooooted since we oop and shallow stacked. We need a read to make this a reship imo.

Its a 6max turbo for one. Surely AJ has to be ahead of his range for opening. I dont think I would ever flat here. Dont really see the logic behind flatting AJ oop with 20bbs in a 6 max turbo

[Wombatman]

Yup flatting is mad Ted
(Fold = Shove) >>>> Call

[TommyGunne]

Easy shove. Definitely +EV unless you've reason to believe the guy is a huge nit.

[Caf]

Its a 6max turbo for one. Surely AJ has to be ahead of his range for opening. I dont think I would ever flat here. Dont really see the logic behind flatting AJ oop with 20bbs in a 6 max turbo

But because it's a turbo people should not be opening wider utg, in fact I would think it makes better sense to have a much tighter range in ep in a turbo and wider in lp because they are shoveaments.

Am I flawed in thinking that it's better to respect a raise of an ep unknown regardless of turbo or whatever the structure?

Flatting is what I would do if it was suited, but maybe it isn't logical. AJo I fold.

[PortOfTheYokes]

Shove

[newbie2]

But because it's a turbo people should not be opening wider utg, in fact I would think it makes better sense to have a much tighter range in ep in a turbo and wider in lp because they are shoveaments.

Am I flawed in thinking that it's better to respect a raise of an ep unknown regardless of turbo or whatever the structure?

Flatting is what I would do if it was suited, but maybe it isn't logical. AJo I fold.

This.

AJo is a mediocre hand here IMO. Would you shove with 77-TT ?

[Downtown]

This.

AJo is a mediocre hand here IMO. Would you shove with 77-TT ?

Yeah so fast. I'm pretty sure now its a shove.

[TommyGunne]

This.

AJo is a mediocre hand here IMO. Would you shove with 77-TT ?

This is a shove. So are 77-TT.

EZ game.

[Caf]

This is a shove. So are 77-TT.

EZ game.

Can you explain why it is a shove please? I do like an excuse to find more spots to shove.

[TommyGunne]

Can you explain why it is a shove please? I do like an excuse to find more spots to shove.

Just do the sums on it. Its a very easy spot to evaluate. If you play a lot of tourneys you should have done a load of those calcs. Find his opening range, his calling range, your equity vs his calling range, and how often he folds (which you've estimated from his opening and calling ranges.)

Doing these are good practice.

Its defo not a call anyway, and not a fold.

[bustamoves]

i dont like this spot

and could be a leak but personally i would make the basic assumption that UTG+1 is rarely raise/folding much here and so i prefer muck and wait for a better spot and feel/read of whats goin on at the table?

just think we're not even in that great shape even if he has a fairly wide range and we're mostly justing flipping and if not flipping find our Ace dominated more often than the other way round


but i'd love to see the math that TommyGunne talks about so i can be more confident about changing my play in this spot going forward

[Flushdraw]

Not that it probably matters, but the fact he opened to 3x would lead me to believe he's a bit of a fish because most good players would be opening 2x-2.5x at that stage in the tournament

[Midnitekowby]

shove.

[Angry-Ball]

iam deffinetly shoving this
1: his utg opening range should be naturally wider being 6 handed
2: his utg opening range is opening up due to getting close to the money
3: your reshipping range should be getting wider coming close to the money
4: your stack size is perfect versus his

SPOILER

this is obviously a ball of shite, because if i was right i would be winning monies

[Daragh999]

Shoving>>Folding>>>>>>>>>>Calling

[Carl_Morrissey]

Not that it probably matters, but the fact he opened to 3x would lead me to believe he's a bit of a fish because most good players would be opening 2x-2.5x at that stage in the tournament

I honestly think this is a massive generalisation.

[peterswellman]

I honestly think this is a massive generalisation.

Plus it is situational. He could be 3x the BB to ensure some small stacks know they have no fold equity or whatever. I have seen plenty of winning players 3x in certain scenario's. However, if none of this occurred then Flushdraw would be correct in saying that the 3x raise is pretty bad.

[ghostface]

I honestly think this is a massive generalisation.

It really isn't

[Carl_Morrissey]

It really isn't

On what basis?

Edit: This actually annoyed me enough to edit this. To assume somebody is a fish based on one 3x open is nothing short of ludicrous. Absolutely no offence to FD and GFS but to make such a statement based on one minuscule piece of information is so short sighted I can't even explain.

[Caf]

On what basis?

Edit: This actually annoyed me enough to edit this. To assume somebody is a fish based on one 3x open is nothing short of ludicrous. Absolutely no offence to FD and GFS but to make such a statement based on one minuscule piece of information is so short sighted I can't even explain.

I agree with what FD says and he worded it well enough for it to be self explanatory. The vast majority of winning players will be reducing their bet sizes as the tournament progresses. On the flip side, the vast majority of losing players will not know much about bet sizing and tend to 3x or 4x opening a pot.

Why does what he say annoy you? It seems pretty on the money to me, but like FD said it's probably not relevant to the decision we are faced with.

[Carl_Morrissey]

I agree with what FD says and he worded it well enough for it to be self explanatory. The vast majority of winning players will be reducing their bet sizes as the tournament progresses. On the flip side, the vast majority of losing players will not know much about bet sizing and tend to 3x or 4x opening a pot.

Why does what he say annoy you? It seems pretty on the money to me, but like FD said it's probably not relevant to the decision we are faced with.

I 100% agree that the vast vast majority of winning tournament holdem players reduce their bet sizes as tournaments progress but to judge a player on one 3x open is a massive over read. Especially given where the OP is in the tournament.

[Caf]

I 100% agree that the vast vast majority of winning tournament holdem players reduce their bet sizes as tournaments progress but to judge a player on one 3x open is a massive over read. Especially given where the OP is in the tournament.

Ye I agree with this too but if I had just been moved to a table of unknowns and saw a 3x open at this stage I would automatically think that there is a much higher chance of this player not being competent. And again the flip side is that if I saw a 2-2.5x raise I would think there is a higher chance that the person is a reg. Neither of which would make a difference to how I play my hand though; I will 3bet the hands I 3bet, call the hands I call and fold the hands I fold against an unknown.

[Carl_Morrissey]

Ye I agree with this too but if I had just been moved to a table of unknowns and saw a 3x open at this stage I would automatically think that there is a much higher chance of this player not being competent. And again the flip side is that if I saw a 2-2.5x raise I would think there is a higher chance that the person is a reg. Neither of which would make a difference to how I play my hand though; I will 3bet the hands I 3bet, call the hands I call and fold the hands I fold against an unknown.

I'm pretty sure we're on the same page tbh. As per the original post, I think I take the same cautious line as you, folding without a read. I'm never flatting here though.

[a-k-47]

i might opr his ass before i make a decision on shoving

[Caf]

I'm pretty sure we're on the same page tbh. As per the original post, I think I take the same cautious line as you, folding without a read. I'm never flatting here though.

Ye, but when I figure out wtf these sums are that TG was talking about I might take a different line.

I understand that our ep opening range will be wider because it's 6 max but because of the stack sizes I can't see what hands we beat that open here. The reason is that I'm folding almost pretty much every hand we are ahead of, if I'm villain.

By shoving we are only ever getting it in behind but the maths of it must say we win the pot pf enough to justify shoving.

I agree that calling is bad now so will cut out that spew in future, like I said and meant to say originally I call if it's sooted and that doesn't seem like a good play anymore.

[Flushdraw]

I honestly think this is a massive generalisation.

On what basis?

Edit: This actually annoyed me enough to edit this. To assume somebody is a fish based on one 3x open is nothing short of ludicrous. Absolutely no offence to FD and GFS but to make such a statement based on one minuscule piece of information is so short sighted I can't even explain.

It's far from ludicrous tbh. 3x days are long gone in both online and live poker. It's fine when the blinds are <50/100 but once it gets above that, most winning players will adjust their bet sizes down significantly. With a 25bb stack (as in the OP) opening to 2400 with blinds 400/800 makes it quite difficult to balance your range especially in a 6max game where you're going to have to raise a far wider range. If we raise to 2400 and pick up a caller, we're faced with a cbet into a pot of 6600. If we make it 1850, we're betting into 5500 and we've more room to manouvre

FWIW, i don't think it's a minuscule piece of information. Along with VPIP, bet sizing is the most important factor in determining how good a player is, and as we've little to go on in the way of reads, this is a big piece of information. I can understand you saying it might not be accurate, but saying it's ludicrous and so short sighted I can't even explain, is well ludicrous tbh

I 100% agree that the vast vast majority of winning tournament holdem players reduce their bet sizes as tournaments progress but to judge a player on one 3x open is a massive over read. Especially given where the OP is in the tournament.

Tons of fish go deep in tournaments. OP isn't even in the money yet so thinking that players must be good to have a 25bb stack while getting to the last 68 of a tournament is a massive overread

[Mellor]

I imagine if Rory changed UTG+1 to the HJ a lot more posts would say shove.
Shove is fine, its +EV imo

[Line Us]

Ye, but when I figure out wtf these sums are that TG was talking about I might take a different line.

Maths are straight forward eough Caf, something like this.

Figure out the following:
p = estimated chance of villain folding, I'd use HM to find the average opening range utg 6 handed and then figure out how often (% wise)he folds to a shove using pokerstove.
e = our equity vs opponent's calling range
x = size of the pot
y = effective stacks

Stick them into this formula and if the answer is greater than our stack now then its +ev.

EV = x*p + (1-p)*e*(x+2y)

The fact he opens to 3bbs is important enough as it makes it more profitable the times he folds to the shove so i'd definitely open up my shoving range based on that alone. Also it means that there is a 99% chance he's a fish so he is probably opening too much anyway and folding to too many shoves.