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    Two tourney spots

    Local semi-freeze out, 10 starting stack, fast clock

    In gerernal all players are way way too loose/passive. Limping is standard pf, they also like to see a lot of flops and most don't really consider much more than there own cards.

    The villain in hand one plays hands very strangely. Basically a bit of a station. No concept of odds or bet sizing.

    Hand 1
    First hand back after the break
    I have c.40k on the button
    Villain has c.20k in MP
    200/400 level
    2 limpers to me, I make it 1400 OTB with KK
    BB Calls, UTG+1 folds, Villain calls

    Flop (4800) is J85 rainbow
    Chk, Chk, villain bets 1200, I raise to 4.2k, 2 folds, villain calls

    Turn (13200)
    J85 A

    Check, Action to me

    Hand 2
    Villain 1 25k - Old guy, limps and flats hands like AK,
    Villain 2 60k - Youngish girl, not a bad player, doesn't paly too many hands, but ignores odds, sizing etc

    I have 50k
    blinds 1k/2k, 6 handed (20 players left)

    Villain 1 opens to 7k UTG.
    I call with AJs, folded to Vil 2 in BB. Says something silly and puts villain all-in for 25k. He calls. Action to me.

    In any other game, I dump AJ to the all-in. Based on reads, this is different imo.
    Villain 1 almost certainly has a PP. He doesn't open big aces that I have seen. Given the size, I doubt its QQ+
    Villain 2, I can't remember exactly what she said. Something about gambling with him, and "call you all-in". I think she is a bit of a begineer and you can tell she wasn't really sure what to do, slightly nervous.

    So, i'm pretty sure they are both on small mid PPs. (how certain can you ever be though?)
    So should i shove and take the flip for 125k and the chiplead, or
    See a flop for half my stack knowing that 1 pair is prob good if I hit, and i'll get paid the rest, or just fold

    #2
    Hand 1:

    I think I flat the flop but check the turn as played.

    Hand 2:

    Are you in SB? I might have missed it in op.

    Comment


      #3
      Hand 1: Based on description, I make it 2200 pre. I check back the turn hoping he has a jack. I think he's more likely to call a river bet if the turn is checked, where betting the turn will probably make him fold. If he bets the river, I'd probably still call

      Hand 2 : Calling the 7k is terrible imo. I'd only call if i'm snapping a push behind me. I'd either just ship pre or fold. I like shipping in that game v those players. As played i fold. I don't see any reason why they can't have AK/AQ/JJ here to have you crushed.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Caf View Post
        Hand 1:

        I think I flat the flop but check the turn as played.

        Hand 2:

        Are you in SB? I might have missed it in op.
        Why flat the flop?

        I'm in MP in hand two sorry, left that out.
        So i'm in position

        Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
        Hand 2 : Calling the 7k is terrible imo. I'd only call if i'm snapping a push behind me. I'd either just ship pre or fold. I like shipping in that game v those players. As played i fold. I don't see any reason why they can't have AK/AQ/JJ here to have you crushed.
        This is after 3 hours of play or so, this is vil 1 first pfr, this also vill 2 first 3 bet.
        I have seen villain 1 limp and call down AK type hands twice.
        Based on what villain 2 later says, I was nearly certain she has a pair, something about gambling with him.
        Obviously you can never rule of AQ+, JJ+ completely. But it would be really out of character for both of them

        Against other tourney regs, I play it as you say above. At the time i thought it was +EV to call 7k and value town if I hit as I'm not expecting PPs to fold. The 3bet really wasn't expected, and was a bit of a FFS moment.

        Comment


          #5
          just some thoughts on hand 1

          wow, i hate the idea of NOT raising the flop against such a station. i wanna be getting his money in nice and quick before any possibility of some weirdness comes into his thought process that could affect my chances of getting all his loot.

          betsizing, i like.

          as far as the turn goes, i think it's tricky and you know it all depends on just how much of a station he is.

          i know he has alot of OESD, gut shots, double gs and jx in his range but i also think he will show up with A8 and A5 a fair bit too which is the worry. i just edge towards the check tho because i think there is enough junk in his range that will fold now that the A pops up and unless he is in the superstation league i presume he will be folding all is draws with only one card to come so we end up getting called only when we are beat.

          close (and could be a leak in my game) but given all the info i check turn with the intention of deciding on river depending on his action and what falls off.
          Last edited by bustamoves; 15-03-11, 01:58. Reason: the usual typo or two

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Mellor View Post
            Why flat the flop?

            I'm in MP in hand two sorry, left that out.
            So i'm in position
            I forgot you said that villain in H1 is a station so ye I would rr flop, and also bet bigger pf. Checking the turn though.

            The thing with flatting in hand 2 is that you have to hit a flop and if you do how likely are you to be paid? If everyones else folds and you and utg see a flop there will be 17k in the middle and villain only has 18k behind, I'd lean towards a 3bet or fold before a call pf. If the flop comes all picture cards do you think you get paid? It's a tasty pot but we are so rarely in front I think I'm folding and kicking myself for giving someone else a chance to isolate.
            Last edited by Caf; 15-03-11, 02:11.

            Comment


              #7
              hand 2
              i'd be folding here.

              just think you are stretching it a bit here to make the call based on a read that both have med/small pairs

              now u have to be right about BOTH players and then you are still hoping to hit and for me there is just too much hoping and not enough expecting goin on.

              i fold and although i am a little disappointed that gurly girl pulls this move behind, i am not distraught because i'd imagine that it was sufficiently improbable for her to wake up with a hand/spot/move (or whatever you like to call it) to happen in the first place that makes calling the 7k with a chance to play old fogie (IP + reads) ok (+EV), and secondly you are still well in the game with a workable stack and will have gained some more info on the players that you can hopefully use from here on in.

              it will irk when they show up with what u suspected but rarely can you be so clinical in narrowing ranges vs 2 players to small med pairs like this i should think imho
              Last edited by bustamoves; 15-03-11, 02:41. Reason: typos ofc

              Comment


                #8
                Hand 1....fine as played so far, check back turn and call/ value bet river.

                Hand 2... like he hasn't raise 1 hand and he is obv old school he prob even has QQ and KK in his range sure they don't know what bet sizing is like you said, they like there hand and bet big. I just fold tbh and continue to steal blinds alround me till everyone is bust
                Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
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                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View Post
                  Hand 2... like he hasn't raise 1 hand and he is obv old school he prob even has QQ and KK in his range sure they don't know what bet sizing is like you said, they like there hand and bet big. I just fold tbh and continue to steal blinds alround me till everyone is bust
                  At the time i was thinking, he bets smaller with QQ+ to get a caller (this is exactly how these players think). But it could well be.


                  Anyway results/the rest

                  Hand 1
                  When that player led the flop i was pretty sure he has the J. But the A on the turn is annoying as he checks a lot of the weaker Js imo. I was pretty stuck between giving him a free card, betting or calling river and betting turn.
                  I bet turn, he CRAI, I call as its not much more at all and am shown AJ

                  SPOILER
                  After the nest break I pick up AA first hand. Same villain calls 1/6 of his stack with 9T, and bingos the trip flop. I just nened to run better against old guys


                  Hand 2
                  I folded to the 3bet
                  Hands were had 88 and TT

                  I'm not being results based because I thought they had PPs and they did. Just this time it was like playing with the grandparents at xmas. Never been as sure with a read.
                  But wanted to make sure that it was a mistake to take even the best read as 100%. Thanks

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                    At the time i was thinking, he bets smaller with QQ+ to get a caller (this is exactly how these players think). But it could well be.


                    Anyway results/the rest

                    Hand 1
                    When that player led the flop i was pretty sure he has the J. But the A on the turn is annoying as he checks a lot of the weaker Js imo. I was pretty stuck between giving him a free card, betting or calling river and betting turn.
                    I bet turn, he CRAI, I call as its not much more at all and am shown AJ
                    That's one of the two big reasons not to bet the turn.

                    Second hand I just fold. Even short handed I don't fancy AJ much against a tight raiser utg. Harrington said something in his book along the lines that AK is a big hand, AQ is a decent hand but not a great one if there's much action pre, and by the time you hit AJ you're already sliding down the slippy slope to ace rag. I tend to agree: I think 99% of poker players would be a lot richer if they always folded AJ in a raised or reraised pot.
                    My poker blog - Doking around in cyberspace

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by doke View Post
                      That's one of the two big reasons not to bet the turn.

                      Second hand I just fold. Even short handed I don't fancy AJ much against a tight raiser utg. Harrington said something in his book along the lines that AK is a big hand, AQ is a decent hand but not a great one if there's much action pre, and by the time you hit AJ you're already sliding down the slippy slope to ace rag. I tend to agree: I think 99% of poker players would be a lot richer if they always folded AJ in a raised or reraised pot.
                      Learning the bolded bit fast!

                      Comment


                        #12
                        1. Raise more pre. Three see a flop with you but you say only two call. 2k is the min I would make it. Check turn. Call most river bets.

                        2. You say it is the first time he has raised pre all night. Easy fold pre then considering how soft these guys are.
                        Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by doke View Post
                          That's one of the two big reasons not to bet the turn.

                          Second hand I just fold. Even short handed I don't fancy AJ much against a tight raiser utg. Harrington said something in his book along the lines that AK is a big hand, AQ is a decent hand but not a great one if there's much action pre, and by the time you hit AJ you're already sliding down the slippy slope to ace rag. I tend to agree: I think 99% of poker players would be a lot richer if they always folded AJ in a raised or reraised pot.
                          Yeah I hated the turn bet the minute i made it. Check back, and call or bet river would be my prefered.

                          He isn't a tight player. He is very loose. Plays garbage all the time. He's just one of those players that trys to get tricky all the time. Limp call master.
                          But I agree that the fold keeps me out of horrible spots.
                          Originally posted by Wombatman View Post
                          2. You say it is the first time he has raised pre all night. Easy fold pre then considering how soft these guys are.
                          They are very soft, but the structure is very fast. Big stacks not have 35BBs average 25bbs, next level is 2k/4k so stacks are about to half. So I'm very much taking every edge.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Hand one start by checking-pretty clear check aswell imo.

                            Two. Fold firstly. Fold now.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              1st hand, could be merit to checking back and folding river if he bets big...

                              Comment


                                #16
                                1. Definitely check back here. He'll probably fold most Qx hands now and only call if he has you crushed. Not the case if the river bricks and he checks again though.

                                2. I really, really dislike pre-flop. You say you had strong reads which is fair enough so why not go with the read and take a chance to be CL?

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