call/fold b v b

[fumyname]

just quick spot, wondering what peoples lines are regarding on whether to call this push with 2nd pair,

PokerStars Game #59104718076: Tournament #411010636, $8.00+$0.80 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XVIII (500/1000) - 2011/03/13 0:43:21 WET [2011/03/12 19:43:21 ET]
Table '411010636 136' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: balzerrrr (15471 in chips)
Seat 2: himmelseng (21144 in chips)
Seat 3: xEtOHx (14962 in chips)
Seat 4: qaresma (17072 in chips)
Seat 5: fullhouseLT (25364 in chips)
Seat 6: guidou66 (8104 in chips)
Seat 7: fumyname (26446 in chips)
Seat 8: jrs5775 (10321 in chips)
Seat 9: 19Pastaboy82 (10669 in chips)
guidou66: posts small blind 500
fumyname: posts big blind 1000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to fumyname [Js 4s]
jrs5775: folds
19Pastaboy82: folds
balzerrrr: folds
himmelseng: folds
xEtOHx: folds
qaresma: folds
fullhouseLT: folds
guidou66: calls 500
fumyname: checks
*** FLOP *** [9h 2s 4c]
fumyname said, "wud hold"
guidou66: bets 6979 and is all-in
fumyname: ???????????????//

pot is 10k, no reads!!!

thank you

[TheJiggaman]

fold...you still have a decent stack, no need to risk it

[JWillo1]

quite an easy fold here. you beat nothing and u have a healthy stack. there is no need to make a marginal call, . there will be plenty of better spots to get ur stack in later

[Ballyegan]

Hard to answer properly without some more info. But it does look like he was trapping pre flop. BUt does he really over shove over pair on flop or even a 9 i doubt it. So i feel its a call unless u have some info to say otherwise. I bet he has two overs alot

[Daragh999]

Its close, probably edge on the side of folding though.

[fumyname]

Hard to answer properly without some more info. But it does look like he was trapping pre flop. BUt does he really over shove over pair on flop or even a 9 i doubt it. So i feel its a call unless u have some info to say otherwise. I bet he has two overs alot

Yes exactly no reads.no hands played with villain...

Im just wondering are we always behind in this spot v an unknown..and are we losing any edge by folding if long term were usually ahead here..

A 9 appears alot here, theres a good case for just mucking to but villain now has 10k stack so future b v b calls/plays will be more expensive. Close i guess

[Moneymaker]

Eh, I just fold but I would make a note of his shove. You're rarely way ahead if good and miles behind if beat.

[bustamoves]

for me it's a pretty standard fold and i'd be kinda happy that i have this player type on your immediate right.

[blaaaaaaah]

Yes exactly no reads.no hands played with villain...

Im just wondering are we always behind in this spot v an unknown..and are we losing any edge by folding if long term were usually ahead here..

A 9 appears alot here, theres a good case for just mucking to but villain now has 10k stack so future b v b calls/plays will be more expensive. Close i guess

I don't think he ever completes here with a9 i'm pretty sure with 6biggs he shoves preflop. You can rule out most 9's bar 95 or 93 although I think he mite fold those pre.... I am actually leaning towards a call here, you have a pretty good 4 with the jack and it looks like he is getting aggressively desperate with his short stack and the 2k (plus antes?) in the middle. I think I call here especially as it does not put you in too much danger if you loose.

It is close tho I will say that much.

Also you should think about shoving pre when these short stacks limp, nearly all the time they fold and you pick up a nice 2k.

[doke]

Very hard to put him on a hand that beats you that he'd sensibly play this way. I'd probably call, station that I am. If he has you beat, why is he shoving?

[GAWA9]

Very hard to put him on a hand that beats you that he'd sensibly play this way. I'd probably call, station that I am. If he has you beat, why is he shoving?

Yeah but they always turn up with some random showdown hand they dont know what else to do with, its pretty hard to range in spots like this but aside from some questionable assumptions your equity is pretty bad here.

[doke]

Yeah but they always turn up with some random showdown hand they dont know what else to do with, its pretty hard to range in spots like this but aside from some questionable assumptions your equity is pretty bad here.

Admittedly, it's pretty ugh if you call and find yourself staring at 55 or God forbid A4, but I think there are enough hands like Ax, worse 4's and 2's as well as total airballs that it could be to make the call ok. Also, if you're going to fold middle pair decent kicker at this effective stack size, you're very exploitable (he can profitably complete with any 2 with a view to shoving any flop). I don't think either folding or calling a big mistake here. At higher stakes you'd probably need to call more (to avoid exploitability and because you'd be up against more sophisticated villains) but at lower stakes I guess the fold is safer.

[GAWA9]

Admittedly, it's pretty ugh if you call and find yourself staring at 55 or God forbid A4, but I think there are enough hands like Ax, worse 4's and 2's as well as total airballs that it could be to make the call ok. Also, if you're going to fold middle pair decent kicker at this effective stack size, you're very exploitable (he can profitably complete with any 2 with a view to shoving any flop). I don't think either folding or calling a big mistake here. At higher stakes you'd probably need to call more (to avoid exploitability and because you'd be up against more sophisticated villains) but at lower stakes I guess the fold is safer.

Exploitability is only important vs people who will exploit you and we can readjust if this guy is ever gonna do that (he wont!). Fwiw I always snap here in game but Im struggling to come up with any range he can have to make it correct.

[Mellor]

It's really villain dependant,
A good competant player isn't shoving here unless he has some sort of note or read on you.
I'd snap the hand off an average player, pretty much agree with doke "why would he shove better"
I fold against a bad palyer as I think you are beat.

pot isn't 10k

[fumyname]

Some very good points and posts, again literally this was first hand v villain so the all important notes/opr missing...

I made the call, believing to have best hand as i taught hed want some value with tp plus it felt a weird line as he auto ships flop,weakness tell online???nt sure..

But he showed up with q9, but stars rewarded my braveness by dogging him,

in this spot again i still would vary fold/calling as it is very much villain dependent/stacks etc.

I think playing hand again id fold without reads. Thanks for input, taking all opinions on board and hopefully learning.

[fumyname]

Admittedly, it's pretty ugh if you call and find yourself staring at 55 or God forbid A4, but I think there are enough hands like Ax, worse 4's and 2's as well as total airballs that it could be to make the call ok. Also, if you're going to fold middle pair decent kicker at this effective stack size, you're very exploitable (he can profitably complete with any 2 with a view to shoving any flop). I don't think either folding or calling a big mistake here. At higher stakes you'd probably need to call more (to avoid exploitability and because you'd be up against more sophisticated villains) but at lower stakes I guess the fold is safer.

This was exactly my thinking but i think what i wanted to know is longterm whther the call is profitable or not and this answer is top notch