How do we proceed - Live hand.

[Carl_Morrissey]

Hand is from the €45 10k Deepstack in D1.

Blinds 200/400

Stacks
UTG - 20100
UTG+2 (Hero) - 36700
Preflop
UTG Bets - 1100
Hero Raises - 3200 AdKc

Flop: 10 5 10 ss

UTG Bets 2000
Hero?

*No specific reads on the dude, will post the continuation of the hand after a few replies.

[kenttheking]

hand is from the €45 10k deepstack in d1.

Blinds 200/400

stacks
utg - 20100
utg+2 (hero) - 36700
preflop
utg bets - 1100
hero raises - 3200 adkc

flop: 10 5 10 ss

utg bets 2000
hero?

*no specific reads on the dude, will post the continuation of the hand after a few replies.

fffffffffffffffffffffffooooooooolllllllllllllllldd dddddddddddd

[Emmet]

I'm not sure I even 3bet here with so many left to act and considering how deep we are...

[Carl_Morrissey]

fffffffffffffffffffffffooooooooolllllllllllllllldd dddddddddddd

Any particular reason why?

[TommyGunne]

Im allin

[SatNav]

Hand is from the €45 10k Deepstack in D1.

Blinds 200/400

Stacks
UTG - 20100
UTG+2 (Hero) - 36700
Preflop
UTG Bets - 1100
Hero Raises - 3200 AdKc

Flop: 10 5 10 ss

UTG Bets 2000
Hero?

*No specific reads on the dude, will post the continuation of the hand after a few replies.

hmm well he didnt have the ten I think as i dont think he would have bet!
maybe he had a pocket pair but i would have reraised him just to see where i stand, but thats just me!

prob get ate here now! lol

[gorrrr72]

If he didn't check to the reraiser which is normally the way it goes and bets a third of the pot it smells of weakness (usually). But then again he could be betting with a pair (to see where he's at) or a flushdraw, hoping to see a cheap turn.

Without a read I'll probably call and re-evaluate on the turn.

[sligoboi]

Hands we're afraid of:
any 10
55
AA
KK

Does an avg casino player lead here with the first 2? He shouldn't
It's possible he slowplayed AA or KK pre and is now afraid of a 10..thought process="Oh why did I only call, he might have a 10. I have to find out but I'm never folding"

Against any other hand in his range we're no worse than a 3:1 dog and we can probably get him to fold a lot of his leading range by jamming. Maybe not a popular choice around here but I jam a lot. Once he has bet he has 14,900 with the pot 9k so when we jam he has to call his stack off to win 11k.

I know I'll prob get people saying why jam when you can't get called by anything you beat but I think we fold out enough that beats us to make it a good play. We also have a nice reshoving stack left should we get called and be drawing dead lol

[Carl_Morrissey]

Right I got a few replies.

I flat called the 2000.

Turn: As

Villian ships all in - c.14000
Hero?

[ghostface]

prob get ate here now! lol

That's what she said

I would sometimes flat sometimes raise preflop. As played the flop bet looks pretty weak to me. Raise to 5.5k and fold to shove.

[DrJFF]

Right I got a few replies.

I flat called the 2000.

Turn: As

Villian ships all in - c.14000
Hero?

snaps him off

[ghostface]

Without a read I'll probably call and re-evaluate on the turn.

Right I got a few replies.

I flat called the 2000.

What does flatting achieve in this situation?

[SatNav]

That's what she said

I would sometimes flat sometimes raise preflop. As played the flop bet looks pretty weak to me. Raise to 5.5k and fold to shove.

exactly my thoughts!! i thought the bet was very weak!!

RE the ace on turn happy days!!!!! deffo call!!!

[Carl_Morrissey]

What does flatting achieve in this situation?

Well its a float in the sense that hands such as 66 will check the turn mostly and random bluffs give up a lot. I can also spike one of my overcards. Also a 10 flats here most of the time too.

[TommyGunne]

snaps him off

This. And seriously, shove the flop.

[ghostface]

Well its a float in the sense that hands such as 66 will check the turn mostly and random bluffs give up a lot. I can also spike one of my overcards. Also a 10 flats here most of the time too.

I much prefer raising the flop, flatting to me doesnt seem right. I'd even ship the flop over his lead sometimes given the action. Surely he can lead with flush draws and the 10 a good bit in this situation on such a dry board.

And way turn has played, snap it

[Mellor]

Shove flop and snap turn

[Carl_Morrissey]

Got some nice feedback guys cheers.

Eventually I tank-called and he showed me Jd10d.

In hindsight raise-folding the flop seemed to be the best line but it was an ugly spot to be in, cheers again.

[SatNav]

Got some nice feedback guys cheers.

Eventually I tank-called and he showed me Jd10d.

In hindsight raise-folding the flop seemed to be the best line but it was an ugly spot to be in, cheers again.

ouch majority wrong !!! what a fuckin sick game

[TommyGunne]

In hindsight raise-folding the flop seemed to be the best line

This would be insanely bad. Would like to add more adjectives, but I'm afraid of being overly harsh.

[Carl_Morrissey]

This would be insanely bad. Would like to add more adjectives, but I'm afraid of being overly harsh.

I honestly dont think shipping the flop is good. We're both way above average stacks in the tournament and shipping the flop is turning my hand into a bluff imo.

[gorrrr72]

Raise folding in the long run is pure spew imo. He shoves with the 10 yes, but he also shoves almost all pairs down to 66, flush draws which you are either slightly ahead of or have the right equity against.

Maybe someone could pokerstove a range in that scenario. I would prefer to just jam the flop than raise/call or raise/fold.

[sligoboi]

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

93,060 games 0.001 secs 93,060,000 games/sec

Board: Ts 5s Th
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 19.069% 18.10% 00.97% 16840 906.00 { AdKc }
Hand 1: 80.931% 79.96% 00.97% 74408 906.00 { 55+, AsKs, AsQs, AsJs, ATs, As9s, As8s, As7s, As6s, As4s, As3s, As2s, KsQs, KsJs, KTs, Ks9s, QsJs, QTs, Qs9s, JTs, Js9s, T8s+, ATo, KTo, QTo, JTo }


But as stated previously I think we get enough of these to fold to make shoving the flop ok

[Emmet]

He doesn't open near to that many suited cards UTG.

And he continues with even less to a 3bet from UTG+2.

That range is far too wide

[sligoboi]

He doesn't open near to that many suited cards UTG.

And he continues with even less to a 3bet from UTG+2.

That range is far too wide

Meh I just did what I was told..

Edit: Also you realise he called the 3 bet with J10 yeah?

[Carl_Morrissey]

I think A2s-A9s, K9s, T8s, KTo,QTo can nearly be removed, im calling a 3bet with JTs much more of the time but nearly never with these hands.

[TommyGunne]

We're both way above average stacks in the tournament and shipping the flop is turning my hand into a bluff imo.

It is turning your hand into a bluff. I don't see the problem with that here though. In fact, given your range at this point, its the only possible bluff you have.

[sligoboi]

It is turning your hand into a bluff. I don't see the problem with that here though. In fact, given your range at this point, its the only possible bluff you have.

LOL quality post. Summed up what I've been trying to say in a load of posts in one line! There might be a reason for that

[Carl_Morrissey]

It is turning your hand into a bluff. I don't see the problem with that here though. In fact, given your range at this point, its the only possible bluff you have.

I actually didn't really look at it that way, shove looks super strong here I guess. I'm just not a massive fan of putting so many chips out there with an (albeit strongly repped) ace high. I just think I can find a better spot. Obv the turn I called anyway. I do recognise the point your making though and don't really disagree, if that makes much sense?

[sligoboi]

I actually didn't really look at it that way, shove looks super strong here I guess. I'm just not a massive fan of putting so many chips out there with an (albeit strongly repped) ace high. I just think I can find a better spot. Obv the turn I called anyway. I do recognise the point your making though and don't really disagree, if that makes much sense?

You say obv you call the turn but what shoves that we are beating on turn we weren't beating on flop? All pairs prob shut down on the turn. At least by shoving the flop we get to see both turn and river which increases our chances of making a winning hand if we are behind.

Edit to say I'm not advocating going to the river with Ace high all the time but on this board texture in this situation I think it's the correct play once we have 3 bet pre.

[Carl_Morrissey]

You say obv you call the turn but what shoves that we are beating on turn we weren't beating on flop? All pairs prob shut down on the turn. At least by shoving the flop we get to see both turn and river which increases our chances of making a winning hand if we are behind.

No I didnt mean I obviously call the turn when the ace comes, I just meant that I called. I actually think I made a bad call.

[TommyGunne]

I actually didn't really look at it that way, shove looks super strong here I guess. I'm just not a massive fan of putting so many chips out there with an (albeit strongly repped) ace high. I just think I can find a better spot. Obv the turn I called anyway. I do recognise the point your making though and don't really disagree, if that makes much sense?

Well I think there are always loads of spots to put your chips in with the airball for edge, and in this spot, I actually think you'll have a decent amount of equity when called. I'm not doing this in this case from a balance point of view, but from an exploitative one. Guys taking this line just fold too much when you ship it in. You clearly can't raise/fold as well, cos you've too much equity for that. Calling would be better than raise/fold imo. Shipping is fine as a bluff. You should be shipping there with a load of hands you 3bet with, and even a stationy mongo recognises that you have big pairs there loads when you ship, and even if they do call, you have some equity unless they have a T, in which case you don't have too much EV. Also, I think this is a line donks take a fair bit when they "want to find out where they are", so I like shipping from that pov. There is definitely a case for calling (folding is out of the question imo), and I think shoving is better than calling, so I'm all in.

All that being said, I think calling is definitely better than folding, and is +EV.

[Carl_Morrissey]

But as played when he ships the turn? You call or fold?

[Hectorjelly]

You have to turn the call.

If you ship the flop you are turning your hand into a bluff, some worse hands like Ax will end up folding, but you really trying to get a pair to fold. I don't think you will have much success trying to get pairs to fold in situations like this.

Since he bet so small calling is fine, your in position and will often get to see a river.

I'd be tempted to fold though, you have literally exactly what your opponent thinks you have, so its hard to play the hand well from here on

[Carl_Morrissey]

You have to turn the call.

LOL turn the call

[ianmc38]

I would call or fold the flop. Live players always have something here whether it is a pair or trips. I think shoving the flop would be pretty bad.

[BuChan]

tiltingly hard to fold when he bets that small. do the shove camp ship it with QQ here too?

[Closed_Account]

Yeah I think shoving the flop is bad here aswell. I dont think they are going to fold v much of what they have lead with. Turn Id call.

[kenttheking]

any particular reason why?

yes my reason well its simple really you have no hand no pair no draw what can you beat

[Bubbleking]

I cant believe so many of you who i consider to be good players dont shove the flop

[Closed_Account]

There is nothing startingly obviously good about shoving the flop. A guy has donked small into you on a board where I doubt we fold out that many pairs. Its not as if his line is super weak he has opened utg then called a three bet. He has then led for a bet size that says either A) I have a very strong hand and I dont want you to fold or B) I have me a pair yo and that looks like a good flop for my hand in which case Id guess its close to a flip whether he will fold or not (he has a fair chunk in at this stage).
Like he defo has "something" here and as a rule its a bad idea to try and get people to fold something live when they have a few chips stuck in the pot.

[danutpeddler]

I think we're a little too deep to shove the flop (don't particular mind it) but I defo do it shallower as long as I have a bunch of FE.
I disagree that we won't get a pair to fold.
I call flop and call turn as played ul.

[AKQJ10]

I would call or fold the flop. Live players always have something here whether it is a pair or trips. I think shoving the flop would be pretty bad.

Live players fold alot of hands they play like this,imo shoving better than calling as calling he'll just bet the turn then think he's committed with hands like 66-99 that can fold the flop. I think its fold/shove. Unless he's repeatedly shown that he doesnt have a fold button id be shoving.

When you say you'd call sometimes, are you purely looking to spike a pair, you shoving any non-pair turns if he leads again?

Lately ive just been peeling AK in this situation deep and early position, in that case id just fold to his cbet

[kenttheking]

I cant believe so many of you who i consider to be good players dont shove the flop

shove with what why

[ianmc38]

Live players fold alot of hands they play like this,imo shoving better than calling as calling he'll just bet the turn then think he's committed with hands like 66-99 that can fold the flop. I think its fold/shove. Unless he's repeatedly shown that he doesnt have a fold button id be shoving.

When you say you'd call sometimes, are you purely looking to spike a pair, you shoving any non-pair turns if he leads again?

Lately ive just been peeling AK in this situation deep and early position, in that case id just fold to his cbet

I'd be peeling as a float to try and get him off small pairs, betting any JQKA turns and maybe some others.

regarding shoving, Jbravados post above sums it up perfectly IMO.