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**gorrrr72** · 14-01-11, 03:45

Originally posted by twitch1984 View Post

From a game earlier on stars
Just wondering how others would have played this. I was more or less pot commiting myself if I just flat the 20k bet. Was also worried bout the seeing the 3rd club or an ace.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 2.75 Tournament, 1250/2500 Blinds 250 Ante (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB (t15977)
BB (t239080)
UTG (t159563)
UTG+1 (t192887)
Hero (MP1) (t78174)
MP2 (t38329)
MP3 (t45264)
CO (t40256)
Button (t208846)

Hero's M: 13.03

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K:spade:, K:heart:
UTG bets t6750, 1 fold, Hero calls t6750, 6 folds

Flop: (t19500) 9:spade:, 5:club:, 2:club: (2 players)
UTG bets t20000, Hero raises to t71174 (All-In), 1 fold

Total pot: t59500

Reraise to 16k preflop.

As played, you played the flop fine. A lot of pair hands will call you and you want draws to pay the maximum to hit.

**Mellor** · 14-01-11, 04:06

I'd re-raise pre, but as played I ship over that flop always

**Starvin Marvin** · 14-01-11, 04:30

Id flat the flop and hope he shoves turn.

**blaaaaaaah** · 14-01-11, 06:16

Flat pre I like it, time call on the flop n hope for shove on turn n snap it off obv.

**Carl_Morrissey** · 14-01-11, 16:19

Against a big stack opponent like this I prefer a 3-bet pre in this spot without a specific read. This sets up a nice chunky continuation flop bet and increases your chances of getting stacks in v his range which you crush. As played the flop is fine.

**Caf** · 14-01-11, 16:25

I like how you played it, although I'm nearly always 3betting pre depending on original raiser.

SPOILER

**twitch1984** · 14-01-11, 19:49

Originally posted by Caf View Post

I like how you played it, although I'm nearly always 3betting pre depending on original raiser.

SPOILER

the reason I didnt post my exit hand was because I wouldnt shove wit it only was getting shortish. but now you say it i will post it and see what others would do in that situation. thanks caf

**fumyname** · 14-01-11, 20:28

I 3 bet small....induce a shove pre...make it 13k or so

your flat however has worked lovely, and like you i jam flop always after his 20k bet

i think youv played this hand fine...

Also why are people flatting flop bet here, villain has 26k in what is he ever going to fold for 50k more..his 20k flop bet screams strength he's not giving this up

so why would we ever flat flop bet..just curious???

**Wombatman** · 14-01-11, 20:50

Originally posted by fumyname View Post

so why would we ever flat flop bet..just curious???

So he can bluff again later.

**twitch1984** · 14-01-11, 21:04

Originally posted by fumyname View Post

I 3 bet small....induce a shove pre...make it 13k or so

your flat however has worked lovely, and like you i jam flop always after his 20k bet

i think youv played this hand fine...

Also why are people flatting flop bet here, villain has 26k in what is he ever going to fold for 50k more..his 20k flop bet screams strength he's not giving this up

so why would we ever flat flop bet..just curious???

hoping to get maximum payout, he would probably putt me all in on turn,

**fumyname** · 14-01-11, 22:30

Sorry lads....

Just goes against my taughts in poker to ever ever flat that flop bet. i disagree completely with ever flatting that flop bet...only because how hand has played id be 85% sure were gettin called.... Nd if he folds we still win...but only complete donkey would put it in on turn imo on a bluff ..Uv flatted flop leaving yourself with 50k just looks super strong t me.

Good thing bout poker though we all play differently...:-)

**BuChan** · 15-01-11, 08:18

ever, ever... neva, eva, eva? lol maybe some o' dem taughts need examining.

**Mellor** · 15-01-11, 09:26

Originally posted by fumyname View Post

I 3 bet small....induce a shove pre...make it 13k or so

your flat however has worked lovely, and like you i jam flop always after his 20k bet

i think youv played this hand fine...

Also why are people flatting flop bet here, villain has 26k in what is he ever going to fold for 50k more..his 20k flop bet screams strength he's not giving this up

so why would we ever flat flop bet..just curious???

I agree with shoving flop bet but not with your thinking/reasoning. The fact that 20k looks strong is moot as that's the aim with his bluffs also. I doubt we get called almost always

**fumyname** · 15-01-11, 23:18

Originally posted by Mellor View Post

I agree with shoving flop bet but not with your thinking/reasoning. The fact that 20k looks strong is moot as that's the aim with his bluffs also. I doubt we get called almost always

ammmm my reasoning/taught on this hand, iits just a standard spot????????????

i will always reship on this flop after flatting pre..if i dont get called doesnt bother me............

all i know the reship on flop is always +ev, weve disguised our made hand, and will be called alot lighter having not 3 bet pre, and i see no reason to ever do anything but ship it!!!

it wouldn bother me to much if they folded either as i pointed out......!!

**Alfie** · 15-01-11, 23:58

The point is that, while it's obviously +EV to shove the flop, it's more +EV to flat and give UTG rope to shove the turn with a hand that will fold a flop shove.

If he has a better hand on the flop, we shove and he calls. Oh well.

If he has a value hand worse than KK on the flop, we shove and he mostly calls. This is good.

If he has a bluff/pure air on the flop, we shove and he folds. This is bad.

However, if we flat the flop, he still stacks off with the first 2 categories of hands, but he also sometimes stacks off with the air hands in the 3rd category.

I don't know why you say you don't mind if he folds, it's obviously a bad thing if he folds because that clearly means he had a worse hand than you but all the money didn't go in...

**fumyname** · 16-01-11, 00:15

Originally posted by Alfie View Post

The point is that, while it's obviously +EV to shove the flop, it's more +EV to flat and give UTG rope to shove the turn with a hand that will fold a flop shove.

If he has a better hand on the flop, we shove and he calls. Oh well.

If he has a value hand worse than KK on the flop, we shove and he mostly calls. This is good.

If he has a bluff/pure air on the flop, we shove and he folds. This is bad.

However, if we flat the flop, he still stacks off with the first 2 categories of hands, but he also sometimes stacks off with the air hands in the 3rd category.

I don't know why you say you don't mind if he folds, it's obviously a bad thing if he folds because that clearly means he had a worse hand than you but all the money didn't go in...

i agree with aspects of what your saying, and i dont see anything wrong with people flatting to give rope to villain to stack of in this spot, an i certainly do it myslef at times in certain hands,with specific reads/info on villain if i feel there capable of donking away there chips...

maybe theres a weakness in my online game at the minute that i do lose value in my hands, not slowplaying and its something i probably need to address or at least alter for some situations, however i still ship on the flop the way hand has played

!

!

so say we flat, turn comes A, whats our move then?? and u say its more +ev to see a turn card( presuming villain donks to us on turn), i disagree with anything being +ev that gives our villain a free card and chance to beat us??

maybe im completly lost on this concept tho

!!! sorry

**AKQJ10** · 16-01-11, 05:00

Just 3b pre, peeling looks stronger unless you've been doing it alot, then i guess its fine

**gorrrr72** · 16-01-11, 17:59

Originally posted by Alfie View Post

The point is that, while it's obviously +EV to shove the flop, it's more +EV to flat and give UTG rope to shove the turn with a hand that will fold a flop shove.

If he has a better hand on the flop, we shove and he calls. Oh well.

If he has a value hand worse than KK on the flop, we shove and he mostly calls. This is good.

If he has a bluff/pure air on the flop, we shove and he folds. This is bad.

However, if we flat the flop, he still stacks off with the first 2 categories of hands, but he also sometimes stacks off with the air hands in the 3rd category.

I don't know why you say you don't mind if he folds, it's obviously a bad thing if he folds because that clearly means he had a worse hand than you but all the money didn't go in...

I don't agree with this for the 2nd category, which is the most likely category for him to have imo.
Any club or Ace will shut down the action and might result in villian folding a hand he would have called a flop shove with.
Or maybe hero might fold the best hand or at the very least he'll have a horrible decision if villian shoves.

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