Rivered Set Facing CRAI

[Caf]

HH is from $16k gtd $26 KO($4bountys) on Full Tilt. SS=3k.

Rough Guess: Hero 3/680, Avg 4k.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 25/50 Blinds (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

SB (t3025)
BB (t6930)
Hero (UTG) (t13405)
UTG+1 (t2510)
MP2 (t5420)
MP3 (t6590)
CO (t3520)
Button (t2595)

Hero's M: 178.73

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, K
Hero bets t150, 6 folds, BB calls t100

Flop: (t325) A, 2, J (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t200, BB calls t200

Turn: (t725) 9 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

River: (t725) K (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t500, BB raises to t6580 (All-In),

Hero?

Maybe I made a mistake betting this flop?

Anyway, went into the tank over this one...villain took a very strange line imo but I had no reads to help the decision.

[Emmet]

Flop bet is good.

Turn check is a bit meh, I probably b/f turn.

River is a b/f. Can't really see what he'd take this line with here that we beat other than undersets, but there's way more flushes in his range than those imo.

If he's bluffing here, wp imo.

We have a big stack, lets grunch fold and hang onto it.

[ianmc38]

Toughy, but im calling.

[RichieM]

I think I pussy out here and take it that he made a flush on the turn and was slow playing it.

[Denny Crane]

yeah i'd cringe call

[ferg]

I think I pussy out here and take it that he made a flush on the turn and was slow playing it.

This.

[handofgod]

call, if he plays flushes against you this way readless I think he shows up enough with worse for you to call

[ikilldurrr1]

Nobody check back flop and bluff catch? That's how i would play it anyway

[Mellor]

call, if he plays flushes against you this way readless I think he shows up enough with worse for you to call

If he has a flush, he was probably going to check raise turn but Caf checked backed.

It's a horrible spot,
I make a crying call as the bet size is a bit off if he was crai for value.

[peterswellman]

I fold the river because i'm such a nit. I've seen the overbet shove on so many occasions these days. In spots like this, it's obviously a flush or a bluff. I think I find better spots than here than pissing away your half your stack when you really have no idea where you are.

I like the way you play it to be honest. Just a cruel spot.

[peterswellman]

If he has a flush, he was probably going to check raise turn but Caf checked backed.

It's a horrible spot,
I make a crying call as the bet size is a bit off if he was crai for value.

I've seen opponents do this with monsters because it's quite deceptive. If he examines Caf's UTG range(which I assume is fairly solid), then he must think he'll have a hand that will pay him off. On the other hand, if he reckons he's a good player who won't call him off by an overbet without the nuts this play is very useful.

I def don't think this is always a bluff. I'd go as far to say as it's 50/50.

[Mellor]

I fold the river because i'm such a nit. I've seen the overbet shove on so many occasions these days. In spots like this, it's obviously a flush or a bluff. I think I find better spots...

I've seen opponents do this with monsters because it's quite deceptive. ...

I def don't think this is always a bluff. I'd go as far to say as it's 50/50.

obviously sometimes its a reverso over bet with a monster. I wasn't ignoring that fact. I fully expect to lose some of the time.

If we are good 50% of the time then you shouldn't fold.

[Bubbleking]

level 1 villain is a fold - zomg I have a flush and need to get all the loots in (i doubt its this)
level 2 villain is a call - in his eyes you never have the flush after checking behind on the turn so you should be betting all your Ax type hands as well as other value hands and some airballs - most o which cant call is bet
level 3 villain is a fold - he knows your range is very narrow so if he checks to you there with the flush you have to bet and in most cases call his shove.

the only difference between villain 2 and 3 is that 2 thinks you can fold

quick shakscope and decide from that but i prob call

[CHDad]

72over folds.

Therefore I do.

[peterswellman]

obviously sometimes its a reverso over bet with a monster. I wasn't ignoring that fact. I fully expect to lose some of the time.

If we are good 50% of the time then you shouldn't fold.

Really? You're happy to call off half your stack knowing it's 50/50 either way. I'm just interested as to why? I know we're giving up what's in the pot already but were nice and comfortable at the moment. For me it's almost a flip for 5k which is quite a bunch of chips at this stage. I can see better spots to accumulate than this.

[Caf]

Flop bet is good.

Turn check is a bit meh, I probably b/f turn.

River is a b/f. Can't really see what he'd take this line with here that we beat other than undersets, but there's way more flushes in his range than those imo.

If he's bluffing here, wp imo.

We have a big stack, lets grunch fold and hang onto it.

I didn't like betting the turn because we have the Kd, we'd be inflating the pot on a scare card and getting c/r there and having to fold would not be good imo. Would it not be turning our hand into a bluff too?

Nobody check back flop and bluff catch? That's how i would play it anyway

I play it this way sometimes but would generally take that line if I have a read that villain will spew on later streets.

Toughy, but im calling.

yeah i'd cringe call

If he has a flush, he was probably going to check raise turn but Caf checked backed.

It's a horrible spot,
I make a crying call as the bet size is a bit off if he was crai for value.

I'm not a fan of making a crying 120bb call when it's so close tbh. Also I think my hand looks pretty strong, I'm never ever bluffing there. The main thing that steered me towards calling was the bet size, not saying I called/folded, but it's a bet that's rarely getting paid and doesn't look to want to get called, meh it's still too close for me to know wtf to do.

I fold the river because i'm such a nit. I've seen the overbet shove on so many occasions these days. In spots like this, it's obviously a flush or a bluff. I think I find better spots than here than pissing away your half your stack when you really have no idea where you are.

I like the way you play it to be honest. Just a cruel spot.

Better spots and the fact the it's a 120bb c/r turned me towards a fold, but then there was the flip side of wtf could he do this with. He can't have the nuts too often imo because it's more of c/r on flop.

level 1 villain is a fold - zomg I have a flush and need to get all the loots in (i doubt its this)
level 2 villain is a call - in his eyes you never have the flush after checking behind on the turn so you should be betting all your Ax type hands as well as other value hands and some airballs - most o which cant call is bet
level 3 villain is a fold - he knows your range is very narrow so if he checks to you there with the flush you have to bet and in most cases call his shove.

the only difference between villain 2 and 3 is that 2 thinks you can fold

quick shakscope and decide from that but i prob call

I didn't have the time to scope villain unfortunately. I wondered what hand villain thought I could have. I'd need to be pretty strong to call and it's a board that I'm(most players in this spot) usually going to value bet the river unless I have QQ exactly.

72over folds.

Therefore I do.

If he stuck his hand in the fire would you? He runs too good to get burnt fwiw.

[peterswellman]

Better spots and the fact the it's a 120bb c/r turned me towards a fold, but then there was the flip side of wtf could he do this with. He can't have the nuts too often imo because it's more of c/r on flop.

But the board would connect with quite a high part of your range from UTG. I think he reckons he can get you to call here with set and top two.I think he's trying to extract maximum value and feels his check on the turn maybe disguised his hand a little.

I had a fella totally overshove over my nuts flush on the river with his rivered house because he put me on that particular hand and realise I would call him a bit because i'd be baffled by the huge raise. I have seen it been done and although it doesn't look like a value bet, it often is called much lighter because of his.

I still like the fold tbh.

[Caf]

Well I wasn't mad about either decision so I took the safer option and folded. Still a bit unsure tbh but a pretty ridiculous bluff if it was one. I'd much rather make a call like this with a read.

I don't know what I'd get from sharkscoping the guy now that I think of it. It's such an odd move that I don't think it would help. I mean if he's a losing player he can show up with anything here, even an over-valued top pair or two pair(turning his hand into a bluff without realising it) but he can also show up with the nuts since he might not know the best way to play the hand. If he is a winning player he prob shows up close to 50/50 with or without the goods since it's just a such sick good and bad card to bluff since it's highly likely that I don't hold the nuts.

Meh...

[Carl_Morrissey]

Vomit and call imo. Its such a mega weird line and your bet on the river looks pretty weak after checking the turn, he could be pouncing on this perceived weakness. Horrible spot though.

[bustamoves]

i would fold. he's got it as far as i m concerned in your spot. just coz he take that line isnt enough for me to put him on a bluff and without anything else to go on i give him the benefit of the doubt.
bettting flop seems standard and i would mostly bet the turn too (folding to a shove ofc)

[Caf]

Vomit and call imo. Its such a mega weird line and your bet on the river looks pretty weak after checking the turn, he could be pouncing on this perceived weakness. Horrible spot though.

How do you perceive weakness in my river bet(I'm not defending myself here, just curious to hear your thoughts)? I'd prob bet in around this with most hands worth value betting this river. I agree about the check on the turn looking weak and that was what leaned me towards calling, since I'm never/rarely going to have a flush here.

i would fold. he's got it as far as i m concerned in your spot. just coz he take that line isnt enough for me to put him on a bluff and without anything else to go on i give him the benefit of the doubt.
bettting flop seems standard and i would mostly bet the turn too (folding to a shove ofc)

I'll put this to you:

I didn't like betting the turn because we have the Kd, we'd be inflating the pot on a scare card and getting c/r there and having to fold would not be good imo. Would it not be turning our hand into a bluff too?

[blaaaaaaah]

Just check back the flop and play from there this hand was made hugely awkward all because you bet the flop when there was no need too. Bluffcatch and take min damage if he does have a flush.

[Angry-Ball]

check/fold the river now

just not worth it with so few chips in the middle (735)

[bustamoves]

Just check back the flop and play from there this hand was made hugely awkward all because you bet the flop when there was no need too. Bluffcatch and take min damage if he does have a flush.

Wouldnt be a huge fan of this approach.
We miss value here if we check these flops. Toughs spots are part of the game and while I m not advocating getting into them for the sake of it I don't think we should pass up getting value from our better hands in order to avoid them. As regards the turn I do see merit in goin into pot control mode as compared to bet/folding but I ain't never giving free cards on the flop when I am mostly likely holding the best hand.

[BuChan]

are we bet folding this flop? bet calling when so many bad turn cards can come off? i understand you can't be checking underpairs on A high boards all the time, but in position on a flop you can so easily be cr semibluffed on with gutters and flush draws... i just check the flop.
as played with no reads it's pretty gross. any hand strong enough to call that raise would usually bet the turn. randomly giving him credit to be good enough to know that in a 26 dolla tourny is a bit meh. call, lash out at something in a violent rage when he merged you with q10off and make a note i suppose.

[ianmc38]

I also dont bet the flop. It's really hard to get called by worse as people are folding all non Ax/sets. By checking we can induce bluffs from worse and we can also try to extract value on later streets. KK on an A high board in an MTT is not a spot where we're going to be able to extract alot of value from worse hands.

[Carl_Morrissey]

I think I phrased my reply wrong, I don't really mean weak but I mean your river bet looks like a thin/semi-thin value bet which a lot of spazzy players will pounce on (even for their entire stack) to pick up a mid size pot because as you said it doesn't look like you have a flush here a lot.

Sorry for the late reply too, gl.

[bustamoves]

looking at this hand again after a few days and honestly i think checking back flop is better line.

[Caf]

Meh, I'll more than likely be checking back the flop here in future but I will not do it 100% of the time and this situation can arise again. I think I'll make the same river fold if I get there. It's just to many bb to call imo and I'm in a good spot already with 3x Avg, plus all we beat are bluffs.

[A_CitizenErased]

The all in on the river is ridic in my opinion. I would have cringe called. But again, for so many BBs it really is a horrible situation.

[pgodkin]

Super Move from the Villian! without using hind sight, did you not think about checkin it back on the river

For whats it worth i fold now as played, prob dont bet the river if i had the mouse controls!

[peterswellman]

The all in on the river is ridic in my opinion. I would have cringe called. But again, for so many BBs it really is a horrible situation.

In what way is it ridiculous?

[A_CitizenErased]

Well maybe ridiculous was the wrong way of wording it as i meant ridic as in it is such a strong move. I just am not fond of that play. Wp if it was bluff though.

[Caf]

Super Move from the Villian! without using hind sight, did you not think about checkin it back on the river

For whats it worth i fold now as played, prob dont bet the river if i had the mouse controls!

I did think of checking back the river att. Tbh it wasnt the card I wanted to see because I'm happy to check back most rivers although I saw and still see value in betting there. Should we not get called by a lot of hands we beat?

[Mellor]

Really? You're happy to call off half your stack knowing it's 50/50 either way. I'm just interested as to why? I know we're giving up what's in the pot already but were nice and comfortable at the moment. For me it's almost a flip for 5k which is quite a bunch of chips at this stage. I can see better spots to accumulate than this.

Pure a question of pot odds. Kinda simple stuff.
We win more than we lose, its +EV (If its 50/50), I'm not in the habit of passing +EV spots.