How would you play this?

[Dice75]

Live tourney - 40 runners
2nd level, blinds 50/100 all stacks c15,000.

No real action at all yet so no reads.
Have only shown one hand which I flopped a set with 88 v 1010.

3 limpers, I'm on button with A5o & call, small blind calls (BB dead stack.)

Flop 559 rainbow.

3 checks, LP bets 600. I call as does EP. (Pot 2,400.)

Turn 2x.

EP checks, Lp bets 1100 - I call & EP makes it 6,100.
LP thinks & folds, action on me? (Pot 10,700)

[Flushdraw]

I don't like calling preflop. It's a horrible hand to play multiway but you hit the flop you asked for

I raise the turn myself, but as played i ship and expect to see an overpair or a worse 5. The only hand that beats us that he can turn up with is 22 but i think we're good here a lot and if he has 22, we still have 999, 5, AAA to catch

[bustamoves]

dont see any point in raising the turn personally.

i call turn and evaluate river. if he is full he will bomb river. if not he has to be scared of your range and would imagine he will give up on bluffs most of the time and check his 5x hands alot as well.

i think its a great spot for EP to rep a 5. if he has a 5 your probably ahead unless he has the unlikely 95. 53 is more a possibility.he has 22 aalmost never i would think.

and i play A5 in a limped pot on the button all day with blinds at this level and stackes so deep, why not.

[ghostface]

This has CPT donkeyness all over it Ciaran

If playing A5 on button I'd generally raise or bin it. As played I'm raising the turn every time to try get it in

[Flushdraw]

Your whole post baffles me tbh

dont see any point in raising the turn personally.

We're raising to build the pot when we most likely have the best hand, to induce a shove from overpairs who don't believe us and to protect our hand

i call turn and evaluate river.

Not a lot to evaluate. What card are/aren't we going to like on the river. Putting in half our stack to fold the river wouldn't be great

if he is full he will bomb river. if not he has to be scared of your range and would imagine he will give up on bluffs most of the time and check his 5x hands alot as well.

I think he will still bet the river with a 5 because we're under repping our hand.

i think its a great spot for EP to rep a 5. if he has a 5 your probably ahead unless he has the unlikely 95. 53 is more a possibility.he has 22 aalmost never i would think.

Don't understand this at all. You think he limps 53, but he never has 22? It's one of the better flops for 22 so peeling there against possible AK/AK etc is possible. If this is CPT, he could even show up with the oul 52o!

and i play A5 in a limped pot on the button all day with blinds at this level and stackes so deep, why not.

This is the problem with limping A5. We hit our hand and you still might fold havin put half your stack in. What if i came Ace high? How you play in a multiway pot because i wouldn't feel to confident.

[bustamoves]

[quote=Flushdraw;215661]Your whole post baffles me tbh



We're raising to build the pot when we most likely have the best hand, to induce a shove from overpairs who don't believe us and to protect our hand

personally i dont think were trying to build a pot or i dont think were trying to induce here either. the pot is big already.


Not a lot to evaluate. What card are/aren't we going to like on the river. Putting in half our stack to fold the river wouldn't be great

the reason i call turn and not ship is because now he snaps us with hands that have us beat and folds his bluffs(in which case building a pot makes no sense)
the plan is to reevaluate on the river. that doesnt mean we are planning on folding. this is live flushdraw and its amazing how much you can pick up on in terms of physical reads so its another chance to see how he reacts before he puts a bet in on the river.


I think he will still bet the river with a 5 because we're under repping our hand. i do agree that he will bet a 5 here a fair bit yes and so we can call with what is likely the best hand. again i am not say we always fold the river when he bets.
in terms of rivers that we like dont like. just saying that we are happier seeing certain rivers than others. i mean if we see another 2,3 or A its better right (and we can still expect to get called by a 5 if he doesnt bet).


Don't understand this at all. You think he limps 53, but he never has 22? It's one of the better flops for 22 so peeling there against possible AK/AK etc is possible. If this is CPT, he could even show up with the oul 52o!


just dont think he calls with 22 here when MP bets flop and you call behind. i mean does he think he is ahead here alot? As for overpairs. i make these to be a very small pair of his range for obv reasons.


[B]This is the problem with limping A5. We hit our hand and you still might fold havin put half your stack in. What if i came Ace high? How you play in a multiway pot because i wouldn't feel to confident.
you seem to think i am suggesting folding the river here more than i am. as regards playing A5o, i guess it depends on how comfortable you are inthse type of situations. i mean you are on the button so you have alot of info to go on before you decide what you want to do or put your stack in. the blinds are so small relative to our stacks so that we have more implied odds if we flop big against weak opponents

i respect your reply here and please dont take me up as being antagonistic/overly defensive. i am certainly open to thinking about it differently fwiw

[Dice75]

Ok so I shove the turn expecting a fold or a maybe a call with an overpair / 5x or (unlikely) A9.

He tanks for a good 2 mins & and then says "u either have it or u don't, I call". I turn over my hand, he examines the board and then turns over 99
It was a Bruce Poker game.

His flop check call & turn check raise did briefly put 99 in my head but I really had him on 1010+.

Agree with u Tony on the preflop call but would normally dump this on 90% of flops if the pot is not kept small with some interest for me.

Stephen - as it turns out here raising ( which I would really never do here at this stage ) wouldnt have made any difference on this occasion.

On the idea of re-raising the turn, it probably induces the shove from the 99 - but do I still have to call then anyway????
Can I get away from it playing it this way????
Or does it just mean getting the chips into the pot in reverse?

[Dice75]

sorry this is a limped pot where villain is on BB so this doesnt make sense. it shouldnt necessarily be any more or less likely (59 vs 53) i would imagine. doesnt make a huge difference in this case though. my point being if it was a single raised pot 53 combos are more likely to call a raise pre than 59

Villian not on BB, its a dead BB & he is UTG +1

[ghostface]

He tanks for a good 2 mins & and then says "u either have it or u don't, I call". I turn over my hand, he examines the board and then turns over 99

Brilliant lol

[bustamoves]

Villian not on BB, its a dead BB & he is UTG +1

sorry just saw this now and deleted post, my bad, scrap that, my original point still stands.

[Mellor]

personally i dont think were trying to build a pot or i dont think were trying to induce here either. the pot is big already.

We likely have the best hand, so building a bigger pot is sort of the objective in these situations. If our hand was weaker but still had showdown value, there would be a case for getting to a cheap finish.

the reason i call turn and not ship is because now he snaps us with hands that have us beat and folds his bluffs(in which case building a pot makes no sense)

Obviously he should snap with a house (although the reality was lol)
and he obviously folds his bluffs.

But you are forgetting that a huge part of his range is neither a bluff or a house, all 9s, pairs, 5x etc
He was betting these for value and will continue with some of them. Regardless, the ones he folds to a raise on the turn, he will check fold river, unless he improves so by not betting we make no extra money and still lose when we are behind.

the plan is to reevaluate on the river. that doesnt mean we are planning on folding. this is live flushdraw and its amazing how much you can pick up on in terms of physical reads so its another chance to see how he reacts before he puts a bet in on the river.

How would you evaluate the river?
Except for an Ace, a 9 or the case 5 there are are no real good or bad cards. The river is pretty much irrelevant.

live tells are overated, he isn't going to fist pump if a 6 falls and he boats up.

you seem to think i am suggesting folding the river here more than i am. as regards playing A5o, i guess it depends on how comfortable you are inthse type of situations. i mean you are on the button so you have alot of info to go on before you decide what you want to do or put your stack in. the blinds are so small relative to our stacks so that we have more implied odds if we flop big against weak opponents

Folding the river isn't really part of flushdraw's or anybody elses the critism for the way you suggested playing the hand.

It's not an issue of comfort. This is best flop for A5, and it is, by proof of this thread, cleary still a tricky spot to play multiway. This should show you that its not a great idea to limp the hand in the first place.

If you are going to consider implied odds, you have to also look at reverse implied odds. What happens when the flop was AA9

[bustamoves]

We likely have the best hand, so building a bigger pot is sort of the objective in these situations. If our hand was weaker but still had showdown value, there would be a case for getting to a cheap finish.



Obviously he should snap with a house (although the reality was lol)
and he obviously folds his bluffs.

But you are forgetting that a huge part of his range is neither a bluff or a house, all 9s, pairs, 5x etc
He was betting these for value and will continue with some of them. Regardless, the ones he folds to a raise on the turn, he will check fold river, unless he improves so by not betting we make no extra money and still lose when we are behind.
How would you evaluate the river?
Except for an Ace, a 9 or the case 5 there are are no real good or bad cards. The river is pretty much irrelevant.

live tells are overated, he isn't going to fist pump if a 6 falls and he boats up.




Folding the river isn't really part of flushdraw's or anybody elses the critism for the way you suggested playing the hand.

It's not an issue of comfort. This is best flop for A5, and it is, by proof of this thread, cleary still a tricky spot to play multiway. This should show you that its not a great idea to limp the hand in the first place.

If you are going to consider implied odds, you have to also look at reverse implied odds. What happens when the flop was AA9

tnx for your comments mellor.

regarding the piece in bold. the way i would have thought about it is if we raise on the turn dont we drive out most of the non 5x hands that we beat? ..and don't we want to keep his range as wide as possible knowing that the money will get all in either way on the river if he has a 5. it also gives him a chance to bluff off his stack on river if he were ever going to do that. he may even bet or check call weaker hands like overpairs on the river that would have folded to our turn ship i would have thought but your confident that he check/folds these on the river anyway and is more likely to continue with them if we raise him all in on the turn, correct? so the piece underlined is key for me. its the missing link in how i thought/think about the hand.

cheers flushdraw for getting the discussion to this point, think i need to rethink this spot in future.

[TommyGunne]

Haven't really read the thread but will later or tomorrow.

Raising turn doesn't make sense though.

[Dice75]

Haven't really read the thread but will later or tomorrow.

Raising turn doesn't make sense though.

What i'm really looking for is the arguments for raising/calling/folding the turn.
Preflop limp is irrelevant at this stage.

[bops]

raise the turn, get money in, cooler, play cash, profit from monkeys, nice

[Dice75]

raise the turn, get money in, cooler, play cash, profit from monkeys, nice

Sums it up - Simples

[ianmc38]

Call turn and call a shove on most rivers although i wouldnt be loving it.

[TommyGunne]

Raising turn seems pretty bad to me. Just raise flop if you plan to raise a street. Flatting flop and raising turn seems pretty bad. You should either be raising flop or flatting flop and turn. As played call/call seems fine.

To expand about the not raising turn thing, I think it makes more sense to raise flop and bet 3 streets than call/flop and raise turn. It just makes a mess of your range. Also, raising turn looks way stronger than raising flop.