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    A couple of hands from the IPO

    Hi everyone - I had a pretty horrible time of it at the IPO and although I got coolered out of the tourney its these hands that I am most concerned about. Any opinions would be welcomed as I really want to improve.

    Ok so my image is a bit strange. Im still a bit drunk from the night before but im in good spirits and chatting to everyone at the table. Im very aggro and raising 80-90% of pots IP but I havnt been caught at showdown yet without the best hand. The players at the table definitely think im better than I am and I overheard 3 of them referring to me as "the Pro" during the first break

    anyway

    Hand 1

    blinds at 50/100 and effective stacks are 7k (i have 12k)

    Good player raises the CO to 275.
    I 3bet 79ss to 600 on the BTN
    Old guy cold 4bets to 1050 in the BB. reads are he is but a pretty weak player. this is only ever QQ+
    CO folds and I call - reasons for calling were Im getting a pretty good price and Im in position.

    Flop is A 8 4 rainbow

    Im not sure if he realises this but the BB looks like he hates the flop. He checks
    I say "thats a bad flop for KK" (mistake ??) and bet 1400.

    who likes?

    hand 2

    blinds at 100/200 effective stacks are 12.5k

    Villain in this hand is keeping me alive. Im very card dead but he keeps calling my late position opens and c/f the flop.

    Villain is UTG and limp/calls my CO raise to 650

    Flop is 854 all diamonds. he checks and I check behind (first time iv done this)

    Turn is Qs. He c/c a bet of 950

    river is the 8h. he checks again and I bet 2700. villain tanks

    whats the worst you call with here? serious answers only please


    Hand 3

    150/300 effective stacks are 14k

    villain in this hand isnt terrible but he bets hard when he has a good hand. i.e. he led for pot with quads in a previous hand on the flop. as he did with the nut flush in another hand.

    edit. he check raised me on a 776 flop earlier and I asked If I raised him again would he fold JJ. he said no so I raised again and he showed a Jack and folded. I flashed 6 (had the 7 too obv)

    villain is UTG and limps as do a few others and I check my BB

    Flop is QdQ3. checked around

    Turn is the 8d and I lead for 1200. only villain calls (or should I say snap calls)

    River Jd and I lead for 3k and villain tanks

    again whats the worst you call with here?

    I know there is a lot here but I really appreciate the help. Thanks
    Last edited by Bubbleking; 18-10-10, 08:55.

    #2
    It's very hard to answer Hands 2-3 because most of us wouldn't be limp calling with whatever hands they can show up with. You're just better off telling us your cards so we know whether you're bluffing or betting for value and see how you played different streets. What you have makes a big difference because it narrows his range, eliminates draws etc. You just can't answer these hands without that info.

    Hand 1 : If i'm 3betting i make it more, 700 minimum. If the BB is a weak player and you put him on a big hand, then i'm folding to the 4bet. He's not folding the hand, and you need a huge flop that you don't have the odds for.

    I hate your speech play and your bet. Generally if a bad/weak player looks like he hates the flop, it means he loved the flop. Your speech and your bet just looks FOS imo

    Comment


      #3
      Hand 2 and 3 I have spanners

      maybe backdoor equity in 2 but I cant remember

      edit hand 2 I had 9T
      Last edited by Bubbleking; 18-10-10, 09:30.

      Comment


        #4
        H1
        keep yer gob shut
        you will have to fire more than once to get him to fold KK

        H2
        why ck behind if he keeps c/fing everytime?
        I see your banking on him having a FD, but i would say he may be tempted to call with K high - kd obv (lol)

        H3
        it's hard to get someone who snaps the turn to fold the river...
        ...i dunno, i suppose he could call with any pair

        The trick to tournaments with lots of bad players is to get them to call you (easy), not get them to fold (hard)

        gl

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by bops View Post
          The trick to tournaments with lots of bad players is to get them to call you (easy), not get them to fold (hard)

          gl
          Wise words indeed
          Turning millions into thousands

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post
            Wise words indeed
            agreed but if you arent getting the hands they have to fold some of the time. sometimes trying to get weak players to fold is unavoidable.

            Comment


              #7
              Mostly what Bops said plus...

              I don't mind preflop in hand 1 but I give up after the flop even if I think it's kings. In my experience live players crying call too much (plus he may be acting). Don't really like the speechplay, it just screams "I hope you have kings and I can get you off them". Kinda unlikely you'd say that if you want a call.

              In hand 2 I call everything I call the turn with cos the river doesn't change much. As Tony said though it's hard for me to judge cos I play absolutely no hand like the villain played this one ever.

              Hand 3 I might fold some of my calling range on the turn to your river bet if I'd seen you play draws this way and my read was you got there on the river. If I believed you bluff a lot though I'd raise the turn with air and call turn and river with all my bluff catchers.
              Last edited by doke; 18-10-10, 10:10.
              My poker blog - Doking around in cyberspace

              Comment


                #8
                Played a similar style myself BK, might have been hangover induced too! Worked out great for a few hours then they just started calling down with anything. Got called after a pre-flop raise by 67 on a 10,8,6,A,2 board after I bet turn and river! Think you have to accept getting called light in hands 2 and 3.

                As for hand one I think you should take the line of having a scared ace rather than being confident about your hand. If you don't want to give up on the hand my line would be to check the flop, then bet turn and river looking semi-worried on turn and bit more confident on river if he's watching. Raise turn if he bets it. (I know you told me how this played out and I absolutely love his play btw!!).

                Comment


                  #9
                  What are you at in hand 1?

                  Isolating the good player?

                  Early on in a tourney I'd isolate a bad player with 97ss by flatting or 3betting in some cases.

                  Save your light 3bets vs good players for later on in the tourney when there's more in the middle.

                  As played I fold to the 4 bet.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by danutpeddler View Post
                    What are you at in hand 1?

                    Isolating the good player?

                    Early on in a tourney I'd isolate a bad player with 97ss by flatting or 3betting in some cases.

                    Save your light 3bets vs good players for later on in the tourney when there's more in the middle.

                    As played I fold to the 4 bet.
                    I was setting up a dynamic when it is still pretty cheap to do so. the guy to my direct right was the only decent player at the table. If I 3bet him early he's not going to be as enthusiastic to get involved in pots and give me free run of the table.

                    Im getting 3.5/1 on the call preflop well worth a peel considering im in position and villain will play straight forward

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by danutpeddler View Post
                      As played I fold to the 4 bet.
                      no you don't

                      Comment


                        #12
                        sorry just saw the bet size,

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                          I was setting up a dynamic when it is still pretty cheap to do so. the guy to my direct right was the only decent player at the table. If I 3bet him early he's not going to be as enthusiastic to get involved in pots and give me free run of the table.

                          Im getting 3.5/1 on the call preflop well worth a peel considering im in position and villain will play straight forward

                          I'd rather stack the eggs at the table than set up dynamics with the good players specially in a tourney like the IPO.
                          Look where you find yourself now, you're in a 3-bet pot repping an ace with no equity, it's all a bit messy.
                          Last edited by danutpeddler; 18-10-10, 12:59.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Calling the 4 bet in hand one is -EV in the long run if you have him on QQ+.
                            Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Wombatman View Post
                              Calling the 4 bet in hand one is -EV in the long run if you have him on QQ+.
                              you have ~20% equity and imlpied odds of ~ 20/1

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by bops View Post
                                you have ~20% equity and imlpied odds of ~ 20/1
                                You don't have 20% equity of flopping two pair or better?

                                It's very hard to say no to that price and tbh I think we all peel after getting here but wombatman may be right.
                                Usually proper bet sizing makes these decisions a lot easier.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  results - Im owned in a lot of these hands

                                  Hand 1

                                  SPOILER
                                  He laughs and goes you're right. it is. and overbet Jams the pot. I tank fold to be shown KK


                                  Hand 2

                                  SPOILER
                                  I get looked up by QTcc


                                  Hand 3

                                  SPOILER
                                  I get looked up by 55

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Hand one.

                                    Its too early and unnecessary to be 3 betting at this level in the tourney. You have position and a hand with decent equity. I would just call and play the pot in position. As played I would 3 bet more, to like 700. But I really think this is v bad. Once the BB 4 bets, you know you are goosed, I guess I would call now but I wouldnt be happy at all. You seem to have lost your way in the pot. Once he checks the flop, its up to reads and stuff. Problem is all preflop. Also speech play is bad. You just said to him

                                    " What? you checked...shit you must have kings, will you fold if I bet this ace because I have 79 and its the only way I can win this pot."

                                    Not gonna comment on 2/3.

                                    You just seem to be losing your way and getting mixed up. When I play a hand of holdem, I have an idea of how Im gonna play it start to finish. You seem to just see a spot, react to it and then reassess and react to the consequences. Maybe best just simplifying it a bit.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      why'd he jam. should have c/c and let you empty the clip imo

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Downtown View Post

                                        You just seem to be losing your way and getting mixed up. When I play a hand of holdem, I have an idea of how Im gonna play it start to finish. You seem to just see a spot, react to it and then reassess and react to the consequences. Maybe best just simplifying it a bit.
                                        Feckin hell, been playing like that for years meself. :-(

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Hand 1 : i prefer a bigger 3bet pre, as played i prefer no speech, i think you might have to fire more than one barrell cos the type of villian might get stubborn with QQ or KK,

                                          Hand 2: in this hand i honestly might call with ace high, so in that case i wouldn't fold any pair,

                                          Hand 3 : also would call prob with any pair at all
                                          http://drjff.blogspot.com/

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Hand 1 - I'd flat this pre sometimes but 3bet is fine too, just give up on the flop though.

                                            Hand 2 - Your gonna get looked up really light there, I'd be calling with alot of ace highs anyway, definitely give up on the river when he calls the turn.

                                            hand 3- looks fine, sick call by him.
                                            "Don't overcomplicate a straight forward game with mathematical bullshit and dicussing different lines with your geeky friends" Chris Olaafson

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by bops View Post
                                              you have ~20% equity and imlpied odds of ~ 20/1
                                              At best you have 5% chance of flopping two pair or better. The problem is you’ll flop a pair about 28.96% of the time and often spunk it off when you do. You will also spunk it off with poxy draws and poxy bluffs. In the long trem most players will lose money getting involved at this point.

                                              You are in position but if your man bets or calls once (which he usuall will with QQ+) he can\'t get away so you have feak all FE. So you are relaying on the odds above.

                                              Burning money IMO.
                                              Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Hand one is close to as bad as speech play as goes.

                                                I dont know about hand two (Id defo call with some aces here-obv he had the nuts give or take) or hand three but if your drunk and playing like a loon you realise its prob not optimal to bluff , not that its a good idea any time really.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post


                                                  He laughs and goes you're right. it is. and overbet Jams the pot. I tank fold to be shown KK
                                                  I wouldve left the building and never returned after getting pwned this hard

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Bubbleking View Post
                                                    He laughs and goes you're right. it is. and overbet Jams the pot. I tank fold to be shown KK
                                                    Originally posted by Howard Finkel View Post
                                                    I wouldve left the building and never returned after getting pwned this hard
                                                    There's actually no need for you to tank fold. Once he ships, just insta muck your hand. You've actually allowed him think he bluffed you off an Ace. When i'm in these situations, i muck before he gets his chips over the line, or else i show and fold and tell him that if he just calls he gets all my chips on the turn

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      1. No need to 3bet this imo. Just take a flop. Speech play is horrendous, just stay quiet. And you'll need to fire 2 bullets(at least) to make QQ-KK fold. I'd take consolation in the fact that his shove is 100x worse then even your speechplay.

                                                      2. I would call you very light. You checked back the flop so you dont' have an 8 almost ever, and a Q doesn't bet full pot on the river when the 8 pairs on the river. I would probably call with A hi here tbh.

                                                      3. Your image is probably in tatters at this point so I wouldn't be bluffing here in your shoes.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Haven't rad the thread yet, but hand one, i think you made a mistake with pretty much every decisions.

                                                        Not a fan of a 3 bet here, but its not the worst mistake you made. That said, you 3 bet way too small.
                                                        Fold to 4 bet, don't try and bluff 3 way here.
                                                        Your speech play makes you look a bit of a tool.

                                                        Hand 2, I call with bottom pair.

                                                        Hand 3, hard to say, I call the river bet with my whole turn range basically.


                                                        Generall, your speeach play throughout (the JJ comment) is idiotic. Gives away your hand strength and its something i'd expect from the "best guy" at a noobish home game tbh.

                                                        Comment

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