Hand early on in Vegas Monthly@Barry's

[JWillo1]

Blinds 75-150 effective stacks 15k, played only 1 hand where i opened with 77 from EP then folded to a 3bet so tight image and players are usual loose weak with 1 or 2 solid players at the table.
Big stack opens for a limp utg causing ~3 more limpers, button makes it 1100, (wtf?). First raise i've seen him make preflop, but i've only been here 30 mins. I look down at AK on SB and make the call.- thoughts?
UTG calls and we're 3 to a flop of AQ6 r. I check , utg checks and button bets 2300, I call and utg folds. Turn is a 6 I check,(???) and he shoves for 9200!!
We...???

[Wombatman]

I fold here pre this deep vs unknowns.
Call as played in this type of tournie.

[ghostface]

Given some of the carry on in that tourn its a call now, he easily shows up with worse in this game.

[8611]

the horrible thing about this is that he is only shoving because he thinks you'll fold.

and on that basis I think you have to call.

but he does occasionally turn up with AQ here.

this kind of spot is completely villain dependent.

the flat pre is very exploitable also. OOP without an A or K and you're in trouble. on the assumption he is at it a huge amount here I don't mind a raise, but you will have to be willing to play for stacks if you do that and I'm not a massive fan of getting it all in with AK this deep.

again this is very villlain dependent!

[JWillo1]

yea i was very sketchy about the whole hand because i had no reads on the villain i didnt feel like 3betting here as once he makes that original raise he's never folding to a 3bet when he's got position and a cbet from me otf wud be pretty much my whole stack so if i miss im fooked. and i didnt want to play for stacks with ak this early on! And when i checked the flop i was inducing/pot contolling so when i checked the turn it was for value and when he shoved i just thought my hand was far too underrepped to fold but he's rarely ever got air here so i'm relying on him havving AJ which in hindsight seems rare as the board was paired with the 6's so his kicker is useless so who wud ever shove in that situation!

[NuckChorris]

Blinds 75-150 effective stacks 15k, played only 1 hand where i opened with 77 from EP then folded to a 3bet so tight image

Not necessarily. This early on you won't be given credit for too much and the player in this rarely give a damn about your image, only their own cards.

Big stack opens for a limp utg causing ~3 more limpers, button makes it 1100, (wtf?).

I don't mind that raise. 4 limpers already and this deep any raise for less is getting called by almost all players - he still got two callers.

I look down at AK on SB and make the call.- thoughts?

I don't mind the call unless you've specific info that he has to have a monster. Plenty will do this with a pair from 88 up and with AJ+ looking to take down the pot.

UTG calls and we're 3 to a flop of AQ6 r. I check , utg checks and button bets 2300, I call and utg folds. Turn is a 6 I check,(???)

I like it, as long as you feel you're under-repping your hand and feel strong with it. I would.

and he shoves for 9200!!
We...???

This is why we need the confidence on the previous street. He makes it a very tough spot with all the pressure on us, but once you've called the flop nothing has changed. The shove looks weak if anything. Call and if you've run into a noob who panicked with AA or QQ then it's just unlucky. Just as likely to be someone that won't drop a pair and doesn't believe you'll call. I'd expect a chop 40%, win 50% and lose 10% (absolute guess work there tho )

[JWillo1]

Not necessarily. I like it, as long as you feel you're under-repping your hand and feel strong with it. I would.



This is why we need the confidence on the previous street. He makes it a very tough spot with all the pressure on us, but once you've called the flop nothing has changed. The shove looks weak if anything. Call and if you've run into a noob who panicked with AA or QQ then it's just unlucky. Just as likely to be someone that won't drop a pair and doesn't believe you'll call. I'd expect a chop 40%, win 50% and lose 10% (absolute guess work there tho )

TBh i wasn't putting him on qq, or aa well deff not aa so i was thinking has to be aq or im ahead and really small % qq, but Yea when i checked the river i pretty much decided i was getting it in on the turn which is why i called after like 5 seconds to be shown AQs and went back to my remaining 10bbs with my tale between my legs

[Moneymaker]

I'd be calling. Don't mind how you've played it and your hand is very underrepped also.

So few hands beat you here. Call and chop it up imo.

[8611]

yea i was very sketchy about the whole hand because i had no reads on the villain i didnt feel like 3betting here as once he makes that original raise he's never folding to a 3bet when he's got position and a cbet from me otf wud be pretty much my whole stack so if i miss im fooked. and i didnt want to play for stacks with ak this early on! And when i checked the flop i was inducing/pot contolling so when i checked the turn it was for value and when he shoved i just thought my hand was far too underrepped to fold but he's rarely ever got air here so i'm relying on him havving AJ which in hindsight seems rare as the board was paired with the 6's so his kicker is useless so who wud ever shove in that situation!

its hard to disagree with any of this. he was obv a good player as he's played it perfectly and prob knew what you had and knew you were calling. you need to be able to identify these players as soon as possible but the live standard is bad enough to make this a call if you've no reads. so many live donks will turn up with 77 here.

[AndyFatBastard]

Villian's turn shove is very strange and looks really weak. I mean what river card would kill his action? If he had a hand like QQ he'd be betting ~4k now and then shoving any river. Shoving now makes no sense at all. Assuming the player is vaguely competent, I call. I'd be hoping to see villian show KK here. The hand fits the pattern of play.

[TommyGunne]

I fold here pre this deep vs unknowns.
Call as played in this type of tournie.

Don't fold pre.

I don't understand why you think his sizing is weird either. I fold now though, even though I recognise how underepped your hand is. Depends how bad he is I guess though. Some guys will shove the old AJ or AT to fold out the chop, but I doubt many guys are like that.

[Mellor]

My first reaction was to fold pre OOP. But people are saying the standard is v.bad.
I fold to shove now

[dannydiamond]

Taking into consideration that you haven't been long at the table and that you obv haven't anything to go on from your op, i'd just fold pre.

As played, get your stack in.

[AndyFatBastard]

Wow, could this hand be any more divisive?

[Bubbleking]

villains bet sizing is great btw

he is tight (hasnt raised a hand in 30 mins)

I fold now your never ahead and at best chopping

[Wesley Harms]

Shove pre, pick up all that money. Simples

[Bubbleking]

Shove pre, pick up all that money. Simples

your shoving 15k to win 2k??

[Flushdraw]

Blinds 75-150 effective stacks 15k, played only 1 hand where i opened with 77 from EP then folded to a 3bet so tight image and players are usual loose weak with 1 or 2 solid players at the table.
Big stack opens for a limp utg causing ~3 more limpers, button makes it 1100, (wtf?). First raise i've seen him make preflop, but i've only been here 30 mins. I look down at AK on SB and make the call.- thoughts?
UTG calls and we're 3 to a flop of AQ6 r. I check , utg checks and button bets 2300, I call and utg folds. Turn is a 6 I check,(???) and he shoves for 9200!!
We...???

I think some of the problem is that you think the villain is overbetting when his bet sizing is pretty good. Pre, he's betting 1100 either to pick up 825, or if called, play the hand in position.Pot is 3800 and he flop bets 2300 and gets caller. There's now 8400 in the pot and his only move with a 9200 stack on the turn is a shove.

I don't think your hand is underrepped with your call preflop and on the flop. You should really only have 88,66, AK/AQ and possibly a smaller Ace is you believe he is FOS. He's never bluffing so he obv has a range for you. His range should be the same, but could include a stubborn KK

I suppose a lot of it would boil down to reads. 30 minutes is plenty of time to get a read on a player to decide if he's capable of getting his whole stack in week. The better the player, the more i fold, the worse the player,the more i call.

[Wesley Harms]

your shoving 15k to win 2k??

Adds 12.5% to my stack and you may get looked up light.

Lol live donkaments

[Moneymaker]

Yeah I don't hate a shove pre as if we call we'll be OOP in a pretty big pot that will very likely be 3-4 ways.

[NuckChorris]

Yeah I don't hate a shove pre as if we call we'll be OOP in a pretty big pot that will very likely be 3-4 ways.

I hate the shove pre. If we're that uncomfortable playing AK oop for 100bb's we should just fold. We won't get looked up light and we'd easily walk into a monster here (3 players outside the blinds) and wonder how the fook we got that much in with Ace high pre-flop.

[NuckChorris]

The better the player, the more i fold, the worse the player,the more i call.

This is what it boils down to. And basing it on the standard I saw in this game when it was in Voodoo I'd snap it off. Bad spot to have no reads on the player unfortunately for the OP.

[Flushdraw]

I'm not a fan of a shove pre either. I'd rather 3bet call a shove than shove myself

[Mellor]

I think some of the problem is that you think the villain is overbetting when his bet sizing is pretty good. Pre, he's betting 1100 either to pick up 825, or if called, play the hand in position.Pot is 3800 and he flop bets 2300 and gets caller. There's now 8400 in the pot and his only move with a 9200 stack on the turn is a shove.

Yeah this, I forgot to mention that his bet sizing it really really standard.
By no means "wtf" etc

[Moneymaker]

I hate the shove pre. If we're that uncomfortable playing AK oop for 100bb's we should just fold. We won't get looked up light and we'd easily walk into a monster here (3 players outside the blinds) and wonder how the fook we got that much in with Ace high pre-flop.

I'd normally agree but flatting will bring the other limpers in and we're facing a 4 way flop where we won't know wtf to do on most flops, even A high or K high boards.

I'm happy to add 12.5% to my stack or flip for a double up.

3bet/call works for me too but your average live players are generally not 4bet shipping in these games without AA/KK i've found.

[pgodkin]

I think some of the problem is that you think the villain is overbetting when his bet sizing is pretty good. Pre, he's betting 1100 either to pick up 825, or if called, play the hand in position.Pot is 3800 and he flop bets 2300 and gets caller. There's now 8400 in the pot and his only move with a 9200 stack on the turn is a shove.

I don't think your hand is underrepped with your call preflop and on the flop. You should really only have 88,66, AK/AQ and possibly a smaller Ace is you believe he is FOS. He's never bluffing so he obv has a range for you. His range should be the same, but could include a stubborn KK

I suppose a lot of it would boil down to reads. 30 minutes is plenty of time to get a read on a player to decide if he's capable of getting his whole stack in week. The better the player, the more i fold, the worse the player,the more i call.

I think this sums up all the bet sizing, but seriously whay can't we make it 2775 pre and get the rest in on flop/turn???? does no one like this...highlighted bit points me in which direction to play

[Kenny]

I think this sums up all the bet sizing, but seriously whay can't we make it 2775 pre and get the rest in on flop/turn???? does no one like this...highlighted bit points me in which direction to play

i like this but i 3 bet to more than 2775, dont want to get my three bet called light oop

[JWillo1]

I think this sums up all the bet sizing, but seriously whay can't we make it 2775 pre and get the rest in on flop/turn???? does no one like this...highlighted bit points me in which direction to play

Yea the more i look at it the more i see how the bet sizing works for the villain. The only thing thing i did pick up was that he almost 100% never has AA/KK when he makes that raise, Imo he wud have made it less with the goods, he wants to clear out the crap and play IP. So really 3betting pre seems logical,(i wud have made it like ~4k) but he's always calling his entire range once he makes his original raise and if I'm 3betting pre oop surely i'm shipping all flops, which seems kinda spewy IMO??

[Moneymaker]

Yea the more i look at it the more i see how the bet sizing works for the villain. The only thing thing i did pick up was that he almost 100% never has AA/KK when he makes that raise, Imo he wud have made it less with the goods, he wants to clear out the crap and play IP. So really 3betting pre seems logical,(i wud have made it like ~4k) but he's always calling his entire range once he makes his original raise and if I'm 3betting pre oop surely i'm shipping all flops, which seems kinda spewy IMO??

Making it 4000 or any more then that would be really bad. We want to give the guy a chance to make a spazzy 4bet/shove and by making such a massive 3bet we don't give him any room to do this as we can rarely fold to his shove. Whereas if we make it 2700 or so, we can fold to a shove if we're on air.

And yeah i'm not a fan of shipping all flops because we have 12k back if we 3bet small and the pot stands to be 5-8k depending on who else comes along for the ride. We can bet half pot on the flop and shove the turn just fine depending on what comes on the flop of course.

[Kenny]

i was thinking we could 3 bet to like 3300-3600, thoughts?

btw if i 3bet here im calling a shove

[8611]

So really 3betting pre seems logical,(i wud have made it like ~4k) but he's always calling his entire range once he makes his original raise

i don't think he's calling 4k with his entire range. he's calling with AQ but not his entire range. I really think he does this with a lot of hands given all the limpers. any cold raise from you in the SB in this spot is really indicative of strength so he's not calling with his stealing hands.

this hand is like this: if you flat pre you simply have to hit the flop. in a way I think thats spewy because you do not hit the flop a lot. once you hit the flop I think you have to get it all in there.

if you raise pre its more complicated. on the one hand I think you have to consider folding to a re-push pre, on the other I think you will have to be willing to make an OOP stab at the pot even if you miss. and given the amount that will be in the middle and your stack size you may end up all in with A high.

basically its a sick spot and the best result is that you take it down pre. so raise. otherwise you're gambling 1100 on hitting the flop.

meh or maybe fold so

[DrJFF]

PMSL at folding pre,


i call here most of the time preflop, 3bet sometimes but i prefer a call,

i like your check call on the flop,


its pretty much a snap call on the the turn

[JWillo1]

i was thinking we could 3 bet to like 3300-3600, thoughts?

btw if i 3bet here im calling a shove

Yea i like this idea if we're calling a shove, which i think we almost always should, But are we betting all flops? because we're never really getting the villain to fold any hands that beat us if we miss and he's (shud be) betting 100% of the time if its checked to him,
this is why i only called preflop but i suppose if we 3bet we are still getting called if not shipped on by hands we dominate???

[Kenny]

Yea i like this idea if we're calling a shove, which i think we almost always should, But are we betting all flops? because we're never really getting the villain to fold any hands that beat us if we miss and he's (shud be) betting 100% of the time if its checked to him,
this is why i only called preflop but i suppose if we 3bet we are still getting called if not shipped on by hands we dominate???

If i make it like 3600 and he flats (not liking this already) and we see a fairly wet flop ill prob check, i shove alot of flops, on a like 9 high flop he may be re-evaluating after flatting with like 10's or something and not thinking 1 street ahead and might even find a fold there but i guess it really is player dependent for me, above when i said i like to make it more than 2775 for the 3-bet is because i really dont like getting flatted here so i would actually be 3-betting depending on weather the villian had much of range for flatting, but anyway i think i might shove alot of flops after i get flatted in this spot

on second thoughts i dont mind flatting, but what i do depends largely on how i perceive villain

[DrJFF]

If i make it like 3600 and he flats (not liking this already) and we see a fairly wet flop ill prob check, i shove alot of flops, on a like 9 high flop he may be re-evaluating after flatting with like 10's or something and not thinking 1 street ahead and might even find a fold there but i guess it really is player dependent for me, above when i said i like to make it more than 2775 for the 3-bet is because i really dont like getting flatted here so i would actually be 3-betting depending on weather the villian had much of range for flatting, but anyway i think i might shove alot of flops after i get flatted in this spot

the problem with 3betting is you are going to have to play the hand OOP for the rest of the hand with awkward stacks in relation to the pot,

check shoving over a bet on the flop is really dumb unless you pick up additional equity cos it would be criminal to fold any hand at all,

for example flop comes 946rainbow potsize (8k~) you check, he bet 4200-5500, you shove for like 11k or so, you think he's folding much?

thats the problem even if you bet the flop when you miss and he shoves, your put in a shitty spot,

thats why flatting is better imo, unless you 3bet to an amount that leaves you with a potsized shove postflop which would make your 3bet in the ~4500range

[Mellor]

btw if i 3bet here im calling a shove

Yea i like this idea if we're calling a shove, which i think we almost always should,

That really went without saying tbh.
3bet/fold was never ever an option for anyone.

[Kenny]

i don't think he's calling 4k with his entire range. he's calling with AQ but not his entire range. I really think he does this with a lot of hands given all the limpers. any cold raise from you in the SB in this spot is really indicative of strength so he's not calling with his stealing hands.

this hand is like this: if you flat pre you simply have to hit the flop. in a way I think thats spewy because you do not hit the flop a lot. once you hit the flop I think you have to get it all in there.

if you raise pre its more complicated. on the one hand I think you have to consider folding to a re-push pre, on the other I think you will have to be willing to make an OOP stab at the pot even if you miss. and given the amount that will be in the middle and your stack size you may end up all in with A high.

basically its a sick spot and the best result is that you take it down pre. so raise. otherwise you're gambling 1100 on hitting the flop.

meh or maybe fold so

That really went without saying tbh.
3bet/fold was never ever an option for anyone.

was clarifying what i thought after the above was said

[8611]

I just think if he pushes there he's got a hand. unless there's some kind of dynamic there of him stealing a lot or you stealing a lot. he must know if you're cold 3-betting from the SB with that many limpers you've got a hand. so I think he only pushes JJ+ and AK. not mad on getting it in there this deep. I might but I'm not mad on it.

I now think that maybe the best way to play this hand is to flat pre provided you are willing / able to play AK OOP. Just one of those things. My instinct would be to end the hand to avoid the difficulties I'm likely to get in, but maybe that's cos I'm not good enough to be confident playing the hand OOP.

[Fiery Wasabi]

Blinds 75-150 effective stacks 15k, played only 1 hand where i opened with 77 from EP then folded to a 3bet so tight image and players are usual loose weak with 1 or 2 solid players at the table.
Big stack opens for a limp utg causing ~3 more limpers, button makes it 1100, (wtf?). First raise i've seen him make preflop, but i've only been here 30 mins. I look down at AK on SB and make the call.- thoughts?
UTG calls and we're 3 to a flop of AQ6 r. I check , utg checks and button bets 2300, I call and utg folds. Turn is a 6 I check,(???) and he shoves for 9200!!
We...???

OK hands up ....it was me!

Big stack was in seat 6,(charlo)who could have any 2 cards,and limps utg, 1 or 2 more limps come from tight players and I make it 1100 to go on the button.Basically I want to play with Charlo and no-one else in position.If anyone else comes along for 1100,well then I know they have a hand.
You were the small blondie guy in seat 4,and I knew as soon as you came to the table that you were a tricky customer and I wasn't liking you having position on me.
I think that if you re-raise pre-flop you win it there and then, as I wasn't going to stack off with AQ and charlo wasn't calling there either.
I don't really know what kind of range I had you on after you call 1100 to be honest, but i suppose it was probably, A10+ and 99+.
After I flop gin basically, I want to get it all in.....I bet enough on the flop to look weak and hope to get called,shoved on by a lot of hands that I beat now.On the turn I just picked up my stack and tossed it all in the middle, without counting it, but also knowing I had you covered.
I hadn't been out of line or overly aggro before that,although I had 3-bet charlo a few times in position with air. and you were just unlucky to run into a hand that has you crushed on the flop, although some others at that table would also have called there too with a whole lot less.

Went out later in about 16th when my QQ ran into KK,and then AK ran into JJ next hand.

It was a really good game and we (Myself and smurph) will try to play it more often.

Martin.

[JWillo1]

Yup thats me, cheers for posting!
I really hated the situation as i hadn't really any info at the table! I was just trying to convince myself it was standard

Wp and did u cash?