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River a flush and get re-raised.

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    River a flush and get re-raised.

    Just a cheap $1+10c tourney.
    Button Stats: 33/12/ AF 1.9 after 60 hands.
    Seemed a little bit stationy, especially in a hand just 3 or 4 hands before. Called a half pot bet on a 7s 6h 2h flop with pocket 4s, and only raised on the river after a turn 5s and river 3s had come out. However, the only hands he showed on the river (9 or 10) were winning hands (so he seemed to be getting hit by the deck by hitting a number of straights and flushes).

    Note: BB, UTG+1 and MP1 were all sitting out, so it was 5 handed, not 8 handed.
    Yes, I was also debating whether to raise preflop or not. If you think it would have been heaps better to raise pre then berate me about it

    Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 50/100 Blinds (8 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    Button (t15875)
    SB (t7890)
    BB (t560)
    Hero (UTG) (t4868)
    UTG+1 (t645)
    MP1 (t700)
    MP2 (t1260)
    CO (t2144)

    Hero's M: 32.45

    Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, Q
    Hero calls t100, 4 folds, Button calls t100, 1 fold, BB checks

    Flop: (t350) K, Q, 9 (3 players)
    BB checks, Hero bets t300, Button calls t300, 1 fold

    Turn: (t950) 2 (2 players)
    Hero bets t600, Button calls t600

    River: (t2150) 6 (2 players)
    Hero bets t1200, Button raises to t2400, Hero ???

    #2
    i prob raise pre 5 handed but limping this deep isn't awful

    all else fine. could conceivably check call the river but you have the second nuts and the Jd is very much in his range here. he prob has A10 with the A of diamonds but you really have to call now.

    Comment


      #3
      obviously the only thing you are afraid of here is the Ad in which case iam deffinetly calling and never folding.

      i think i would probably push here aswell as you would get alot of callers from a weaker flush with Jd and 10d type hands.
      it is only a dollar tournie so i would expect to get called by a weaker flush alot of the time here and that will far out weight the odd time that he turns the Ad imo. so this would make it +ev shove.


      ohh and before i forget KQo is most deffinetly a 3x raise pre when shorthanded and even on a full table i would 3x it aswell



      "Remember the time he ate my goldfish? And you lied and said I never had goldfish. Then why did I have the bowl, Bart? Why did I have the bowl?"

      Comment


        #4
        On a full table I fold this UTG, you are way out of position with an easily dominated hand if you get any callers. It's marginal playing it now but if you have to play it then raise to 250.

        I would have checked the turn but as played I call just because I have so much invested and am only beaten by 1 card (which he will have a lot), but 2nd nuts with 50% or more of my stack invested = call.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
          ..with an easily dominated hand if you get any callers. It's marginal playing it now but if you have to play it then raise to 250.
          This is not really true. Its completely standard to 3bet QQ+,AK even for the nittiest of nits. Many will also 3b AQ which is the only hand that dominates KQ that is not necessarily 3bet as standard. There is a big difference between say KQ and KJ when it comes to domination as a lot of people will call raises with KQ/AJ but not 3bet them - if that makes any sense

          Comment


            #6
            Raise pre with only 5 people at the table. 8 at the table a fold is fine but it's a clear raise for me. Hate the limp.

            I'd just fold the river because this is the Ad close to 99% of the time imo. What else min-raises here that you beat? Unless he's a complete drooler fold seems best to me. Shoving would be lolbad and calling is meh.

            Bet sizing is fine imo.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by BobSloane View Post
              This is not really true. Its completely standard to 3bet QQ+,AK even for the nittiest of nits. Many will also 3b AQ which is the only hand that dominates KQ that is not necessarily 3bet as standard. There is a big difference between say KQ and KJ when it comes to domination as a lot of people will call raises with KQ/AJ but not 3bet them - if that makes any sense
              When you raise from UTG you are representing a bigger hand than KQ so AQ flats a lot more than 3-bets. So in terms of where you are making the raise from I think you will be dominated by hands that call you. KJ,QJ,K10,Q10 are generally not calling an UTG raise. I don't 3-bet an UTG raise with AK or AQ at this level a tourney, it's deep enough to peel and play in position.

              Comment


                #8
                I open 3x, check turn and probably check/call the river too where we can catch a lot of bluffs and worse flushes.

                As played I would fold the river. It is hard to fold the second nuts to a min raise but very little min raises here.

                Originally posted by Angry-Ball View Post
                obviously the only thing you are afraid of here is the Ad in which case iam deffinetly calling and never folding.

                i think i would probably push here aswell as you would get alot of callers from a weaker flush with Jd and 10d type hands.
                it is only a dollar tournie so i would expect to get called by a weaker flush alot of the time here and that will far out weight the odd time that he turns the Ad imo. so this would make it +ev shove.


                ohh and before i forget KQo is most deffinetly a 3x raise pre when shorthanded and even on a full table i would 3x it aswell
                The thing about the micro stakes imo is that you are able to find so many better spots to use your chips. Shoving is terrible at any stake and it's going to be very rare that anyone at any stake min raises the river lighter than what we have(nothing could make this a +EV shove anyway). It's read dependent to an extent but it would want to be a very good read to call here.
                Last edited by Caf; 08-10-10, 14:03.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                  When you raise from UTG you are representing a bigger hand than KQ so AQ flats a lot more than 3-bets. So in terms of where you are making the raise from I think you will be dominated by hands that call you. KJ,QJ,K10,Q10 are generally not calling an UTG raise. I don't 3-bet an UTG raise with AK or AQ at this level a tourney, it's deep enough to peel and play in position.
                  Ok maybe Im being a bit pedantic. I thought you were suggesting that there were a lot of dominating hands that would call. I'm suggesting there are few and that the majority of dominating hands would be 3bet pre by the majority of players - with the exception of AQ, although some would 3bet that too. I pointed this out in my first post so don't know why you needed to pretty much repeat it. What are these other hands that are dominating you that will call pre? Fair enough if you wouldn't 3bet an utg raise with AK - but most people would.

                  I don't play a lot of tournaments - or poker in general in the last few months - but most online tournaments I've played would be in the $11-$55 range and my recollection is that people do call utg raises with all the hands you say they're not calling with. They are generally bad players and online tourneys in the $11-$55 range are overrun with them! All that said I think open folding KQo utg is fine too.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Preflop, raise pre!

                    Flop, this is fine

                    Turn, you should be pot controlling here, check call.

                    River, getting a million to 1 you gotta call with 2nd nuts, although you should be in a situation where you can check call the river which minimizes the damage if he actually has the nuts.
                    Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

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                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by BobSloane View Post
                      Ok maybe Im being a bit pedantic. I thought you were suggesting that there were a lot of dominating hands that would call. I'm suggesting there are few and that the majority of dominating hands would be 3bet pre by the majority of players - with the exception of AQ, although some would 3bet that too. I pointed this out in my first post so don't know why you needed to pretty much repeat it. What are these other hands that are dominating you that will call pre? Fair enough if you wouldn't 3bet an utg raise with AK - but most people would.

                      I don't play a lot of tournaments - or poker in general in the last few months - but most online tournaments I've played would be in the $11-$55 range and my recollection is that people do call utg raises with all the hands you say they're not calling with. They are generally bad players and online tourneys in the $11-$55 range are overrun with them! All that said I think open folding KQo utg is fine too.
                      This line of thought will get you into all sorts of trouble when it comes to the reasoning for playing KQos, especially OOP.
                      We all know that all tournies are full of donkies. All the more reaon to pick better spots to to stack them, this hand actually proves that point imo.
                      I generally feel KQos is overvalued by the majority of players, I see loads of them go broke with top pair regularly.
                      I'm not getting at you personally, just posting general advice as I see it.

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