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Don't think we had a fold KK preflop thread yet on IPB..

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    Don't think we had a fold KK preflop thread yet on IPB..

    Big buyin live tournie. About 500 players entered and we're down to the last 30 players and everyone is in the money.

    Hero playing well and picking up a lot of pots. Usually have the goods when it goes to showdown. Would be one of the more aggressive players at the table.

    Villain is an unknown to me. I wouldn't say he's played too many of these games so this would be a big cash for him. He's played well to get this far and has shown himself to be quite competent.

    Blinds 3k/6k

    Hero raises UTG to 18k with KK
    Villain in the Co raise to 45k
    Hero re-pops to 152k
    Villain shoves for 312k

    Hero has about 400k behind. Can you fold this as there's a pretty high percentage of chance the villian has AA. Is a 4bet fold really bad. Is a fold desciplined?

    #2
    Given the hero's raise and then the villians re-raise I'm probably folding here. I'm sick doing it but folding all the same.
    Although villian might be aggressive if he's as competent as you think he is then he's not doing this without AA. Especially considering hero bumps it to 152K. Now I'm no expert but just thought I'd throw in my two cents for what it's worth. Maybe I'm being to passive here but I would prefer to dump the Kings and wait for a better spot than call just for villian to show the Aces I more or less thought he had in the first place.

    Comment


      #3
      Basically your 4bet commits his stack if he's continuing and the read that you've made now that he's continuing is that he only does so with AA which makes your 4bet bad. Now you're in the silly spot of getting >3/1 to call meaning that if you add ONE combo of AKs to his range and maybe the other KK then a call is still just about breakeven.
      I think the initial mistake given your read is 4betting and if you're going to play on then calling the 3bet and seeing what he does next is better.

      Comment


        #4
        I'm really hoping that this isn't you playing FD! And also assuming that this is NLHE but just in the wrong forum.

        4b folding is awful. Making it 152k is awful.

        Making it 90k might be OK. I'd leave it to tourney specialists to see if thats OK, but I'd imagine it is. Shoving is better though. Either way 152k is terrible.

        I'd make it a little less than 18k preflop too unless average stack is similar to yours.

        4b/folding is really awful. Its a very simple descision between flatting the 4bet and trying to get all in. What do you think he's going to do when you make it 150k? I can't imagine anyone, bar some enormous meganits that I would flat the 3b against too.
        Foldaramus et foldarabimus

        Comment


          #5
          Stick the link up for the vid, i was watching this earlier today strangely

          Comment


            #6
            Yeah the bet sizing is pretty atrocious. I'd open for 15k, and that 152k 4bet(and the thought of folding to a jam from the villain) is brutal.

            I'd 4bet to like 95-110k if I didn't decide to just flat or jam. Such a massive 4bet tells him you're committed to call a jam, whereas if we 4bet smaller, it may give him the illusion of FE and he'll jam lighter.

            Folding at any point would be insanity imo.
            Last edited by Moneymaker; 18-02-10, 19:16.

            Comment


              #7
              found this on that internetimygig thing


              percentage of times someone is holding AA when you are holding KK

              no. of players / percentage

              9: / 4.4%
              8: / 3.9%
              7: / 3.4%
              6: / 2.9%
              5: / 2.4%
              4: / 2.0%
              3: / 1.5%
              2: / 1.0%
              1: / 0.5%

              but as zuutroy has said now that there has been 3-betting and 4-betting this increases the %ages above but by how much i don't know

              fwiw i think i would call here you are getting nearly 3:1 and it would be a pretty awfull lay down at this stage



              "Remember the time he ate my goldfish? And you lied and said I never had goldfish. Then why did I have the bowl, Bart? Why did I have the bowl?"

              Comment


                #8
                4bet sizing is horrible,


                depending on my current image, my opponents tendancies, it wud determine whether i flat, 4bet/call or shove


                it really looks like the Villain has AA here, but he could have gone made with QQ+, AK and you can't fold vs that range,


                Folding KK preflop isn't good imo
                http://drjff.blogspot.com/

                Comment


                  #9
                  I think I mentioned the lack of KK pf thread here. Next up AA in the BB the first hand of the WSOP, everyone shoves. Queue facepalm

                  I call pretty quickly, I never make the 4 bet to fold to a shove. I always make the 4 bet. Bet sizing is off imo.


                  The problem with KK preflop thread is that, people spaz out with replys and actually convince themselves they fold. (as a hand where the hero calls and beats QQ is hardly worth a thread)

                  eg;
                  Originally posted by Tilt Gone View Post
                  Given the hero's raise and then the villians re-raise I'm probably folding here. I'm sick doing it but folding all the same.


                  As for the hand, I snap it off, and i'm pretty sure you do too tony. Hero, probably folded to be shown QQ or AK and went a bit made, knocking over chips etc



                  edit: There was only one time when I was close to laying down KK preflop. Against Doke in the SE. I had a small read on him, and I didn't go with it. Obv he had AA.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    you have to call, even if he has AA you have 240k left afterwards, 40 BBs, plenty to play with and you'll look tight after this hand

                    you could only possibly consider folding against nitty mcnitwick when a bunch of columbian narco terrorists have kidnapped your 6 year old daughter and staked you into the game with a gun against her head. even then you should prob call if they know anything about poker

                    Comment


                      #11
                      As people have said 4 betting with anything other than calling in mind makes no sense. We expect him to never flat the 4 bet, so he'll either shove or fold, there's no point making the 4 bet if we expect that it narrows his continuing range down to the one hand that beats us. Either we can 4 bet because his shoving range is such that we want to get it in or we have to flat, if we think 4 betting means he only continues with AA than why would we 4 bet?

                      As played I'd 4 bet/call in the absence of any more specific reads, such as his 3 bet tendencies or general nittyness etc

                      Going by previous comments I assume this is from WSOPE? I remember two people I think folding KK pre in their coverage this year, both times they were up against AA?
                      "In the world, there are many kings but there is only one God. I am God, I am El Tren" :{)

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Just in reply to Mellor, a few posts above. I see what your saying Mellor but given the details of the OP's post and the way the hand has played out I'm folding here. If the OP is asking peoples opinion on what we personally would do given the circumstances as they stand now then i'm not changing my mind just because I have some people have slated my opinion.

                        Hero still has 400K behind (and maybe that's why I'll never be a really good player because I'm willing to fold these hands) so in my eyes why call just to see Aces or even worse AK and villian to spike an Ace. Beats like that stay with me for days after so i've just got into the habit of not getting myself into these situations. Granted playing like this hasn't made me any vast amounts of money but i haven't left a tournie sick as a dog in a good while either. Maybe that's my problem? The fact that these beats tend to stick with me has seriously damaged my game. who knows??
                        Last edited by Tilt Gone; 19-02-10, 04:18. Reason: Train of thought has pulled out of the station..

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Tilt Gone View Post
                          so in my eyes why call just to see Aces or even worse AK and villian to spike an Ace.
                          Originally posted by Mellor View Post
                          The problem with KK preflop thread is that, people spaz out with replys
                          Yup

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Tilt Gone View Post
                            or even worse AK and villian to spike an Ace. Beats like that stay with me for days after so i've just got into the habit of not getting myself into these situations
                            This is ridiculous . How in anyway would it be even worse to see AK ? I actually couldn't believe it when I saw this.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Tilt Gone View Post
                              Hero still has 400K behind (and maybe that's why I'll never be a really good player because I'm willing to fold these hands) so in my eyes why call just to see Aces or even worse AK and villian to spike an Ace. Beats like that stay with me for days after so i've just got into the habit of not getting myself into these situations. Granted playing like this hasn't made me any vast amounts of money but i haven't left a tournie sick as a dog in a good while either. Maybe that's my problem? The fact that these beats tend to stick with me has seriously damaged my game. who knows??
                              facepalm.jpg

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Sledgejammer View Post
                                Going by previous comments I assume this is from WSOPE? I remember two people I think folding KK pre in their coverage this year, both times they were up against AA?
                                Haven't been online for a couple of days but was watching this the other night. Can't remember which episode it's from, but it's the WSOPE 2009. Ram Vaswani 4-bet folded KK when up against an amateur's AA with 30 odd players left.

                                I've a lot of respect for Vaswani's tournament play, but hated the bet sizing and the fold for all the reasons posted so far in the thread. You're never really going to get an interesting discussion in a fold KK pre thread, but just thought i'd throw it out there anyway!

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1huU8MU0Jsk&NR=1[/ame]

                                  nitty mcnitwick in seat 3 there

                                  i can only presume Ram knew enough about him to know he was only coming back again with aces...

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Tilt Gone View Post
                                    Hero still has 400K behind (and maybe that's why I'll never be a really good player because I'm willing to fold these hands) so in my eyes why call just to see Aces or even worse AK and villian to spike an Ace.
                                    Nope, that's why you will never be a really good player </end unnecessarily harsh retort>

                                    You suffer from confirmation bias which is going to and is destroying your profitability. You remember the nasty beats but don't remember the numerous -ev plays you make as they are small and can be hard to spot. On their own these slight mistakes don't matter much, but over time they add up like interest on a credit card bill. In this case you are making them because of your somewhat warped views on how many times this happens. I promise you it doesn't happen as much as you think.

                                    On to this hand, why are people complaining about the raise size. It's perfect. That way you know he has AA when he 5 bets shoves!

                                    Comment

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