Mucked cards

[ItFellOnDeafEars]

Hi.

Am just wondering what is the correct ruling here?

Was playing a 25c/50c game last saturday.

[sligoboi]

I'm afraid to get some genuine answers you'll need to give more info than that.

What is your actual question? What situation are you referring to?

[ItFellOnDeafEars]

Mucked cards

Hi.

Am just wondering what is the correct ruling here?

Was playing a 25c/50c NL game last saturday night.

Preflop action goes like this-

UTG shoves his remaining chips approx €5.25. Folded around to CO, who pushes as well with €12. I'm on the button so I call for the lolz as the game was finishing up.

Everyone else folds.

The board is dealt and UTG shows two pair. CO folds and I look to have won the side pot with a pair. When it is pointed out that there is 4 hearts on the board, the CO then retrieves her cards (which had not touched the muck) and realises she had a queen high flush.

Pot is awarded to her much to the protest of UTG who had lost a bit of money that night. I'm not sure what the ruling here as I'm a bit vague as to the difference in cash and tournament rulings although now that I think about it, I think CO forfieted her right to the pot when she initally folded? And that her cards are dead from that point on and can only be live again if a player in the hand requests to see it?

[sickhabbit]

I really cant make a decision without seeing pics of CO obv'.

I assume this was a home game, so it's house rules... Who was running the game, what did they say?

[ItFellOnDeafEars]

Sorry about my first post. Internet connection is playing up!!

It was a game ran by the Irish Deaf Poker society.

[sickhabbit]

meh, I think it's not dead until it hits the muck or dealer dragged it into the muck, could be wrong though.

[Flushdraw]

I'd actually allow her to claim the pot. It was up to the dealer to muck her hand once she threw them over the line. Unfortunelty, it's the people that pointed out the 4flush and the dealer for being slow that had an impact, but best hand deserves to win at the end of the day

[Strewelpeter]

The problem here is thet the thread title says 'Mucked Cards' but the OP saya

the CO then retrieves her cards (which had not touched the muck)

These two things are not the same.

[ItFellOnDeafEars]

The problem here is thet the thread title says 'Mucked Cards' but the OP saya

These two things are not the same.

I had to edit it after the dealer (who also was the floor manager that night) pointed out to me on gmail chat that the cards were not in the muck.

So the CO folded, her cards did not hit the muck, dealer says something along the line "noone has a flush?" in amazement, CO retrieves card and realises she has flush.

But I thought if you folded, your hand was dead unless a player involved in the hand requested to see it and it would become live again? Or is that for tournaments only?

[Flushdraw]

I had to edit it after the dealer (who also was the floor manager that night) pointed out to me on gmail chat that the cards were not in the muck.

So the CO folded, her cards did not hit the muck, dealer says something along the line "noone has a flush?" in amazement, CO retrieves card and realises she has flush.

But I thought if you folded, your hand was dead unless a player involved in the hand requested to see it and it would become live again? Or is that for tournaments only?

Wow that's bang out of order. He's there to deal not comment on any aspect of the hand. The floor manager needs a lesson in how to deal, and if he still can't do it, he should stick to the floor

[sickhabbit]

The dealer said that? Jesus, I don't like that much.

[Strewelpeter]

I had to edit it after the dealer (who also was the floor manager that night) pointed out to me on gmail chat that the cards were not in the muck.

So the CO folded, her cards did not hit the muck, dealer says something along the line "noone has a flush?" in amazement, CO retrieves card and realises she has flush.

But I thought if you folded, your hand was dead unless a player involved in the hand requested to see it and it would become live again? Or is that for tournaments only?

The mechanics of what is a fold and whether cards over the line and touching the muck are all angels on the head of a pin debates for TD's and floor managers to rule on. But a dealer commenting like that before he made sure the cards were properly in the muck is outrageous.

[Icarus152]

Bad dealing all around,when someone folds,their cards should be insta mucked.Also,dealer should keep his piehole shut.

In this case,assuming the cards have not reached the muck,I'd probably rule the hand live.Dealer to blame,IMO.

[ItFellOnDeafEars]

Got it wrong again. Floor manager was seated beside the dealer. And after the dealer's mistake in this hand, she took over. Was unsure when she had taken over hence my confusion who dealt this hand. Sorry.

So I guess the general consensus is the CO's folded cards were still live as they hadn't been thrown into the muck. Would the same ruling apply to tournaments? I vaguely recall some thread with a similar scenario and a player requested to see his opponents folded cards, only to realise it was better than his holding and thus the pot was awarded in his opponents favour?? Or did I just imagine reading that somewhere?

[Flushdraw]

I vaguely recall some thread with a similar scenario and a player requested to see his opponents folded cards, only to realise it was better than his holding and thus the pot was awarded in his opponents favour?? Or did I just imagine reading that somewhere?

That happened in the Irish Open last year afair. A guy bluffed with AQ for Ace high and demanded to see his opponents folded cards. His opponent had AK and won the hand with a better kicker

[liz:)]

That happened in the Irish Open last year afair. A guy bluffed with AQ for Ace high and demanded to see his opponents folded cards. His opponent had AK and won the hand with a better kicker

if the other player is demanding to see the cards then the 2 cards are supposed to be touched off the muck to kill them and then turned up so the cards are not live

[Electra Blue]

Got it wrong again. Floor manager was seated beside the dealer. And after the dealer's mistake in this hand, she took over. Was unsure when she had taken over hence my confusion who dealt this hand. Sorry.

So I guess the general consensus is the CO's folded cards were still live as they hadn't been thrown into the muck. Would the same ruling apply to tournaments? I vaguely recall some thread with a similar scenario and a player requested to see his opponents folded cards, only to realise it was better than his holding and thus the pot was awarded in his opponents favour?? Or did I just imagine reading that somewhere?

I was floor manager for the IDP monthly tournament. We run a side cash game afterwards... We have a new dealer who needs to build up his dealing skills, I allowed him to work the cash table and was sitting beside him mentoring him.

When this happened, 1st player says 'I got two pair', OP shows 1 pair and CO just pushed her cards face down away; as I was explaining to the dealer main pot goes to X/side pot to Y - I started saying "its a 4 heart board but no one has a heart so... " then CO picks up her cards again saying 'Oh! Wait! I DO have a heart!' and throwns down Qh.

Everyone then looked at me for a ruling and I had to allow the flush as the best hand to take both pots... While OP accepted my ruling, the other player who had lost a considerable amount of money already, got really narky with me (and still is bitter about it from all accounts ).

I accept I should have directed dealer to pick up CO's cards first before telling him what to do with the pots... but it happened.

Was I right or wrong to make this ruling in this instance?

[Flushdraw]

I was floor manager for the IDP monthly tournament. We run a side cash game afterwards... We have a new dealer who needs to build up his dealing skills, I allowed him to work the cash table and was sitting beside him mentoring him.

When this happened, 1st player says 'I got two pair', OP shows 1 pair and CO just pushed her cards face down away; as I was explaining to the dealer main pot goes to X/side pot to Y - I started saying "its a 4 heart board but no one has a heart so... " then CO picks up her cards again saying 'Oh! Wait! I DO have a heart!' and throwns down Qh.

Everyone then looked at me for a ruling and I had to allow the flush as the best hand to take both pots... While OP accepted my ruling, the other player who had lost a considerable amount of money already, got really narky with me (and still is bitter about it from all accounts ).

I accept I should have directed dealer to pick up CO's cards first before telling him what to do with the pots... but it happened.

Was I right or wrong to make this ruling in this instance?

To avoid any confusion, tell the dealers to pull the cards into the muck as soon as they are put over the line by the player. Also, when there's side pots involved, also award the side pots before the main pot.

I think you made the correct ruling in relation to how the event happened

[curleywurley]

I was floor manager for the IDP monthly tournament. We run a side cash game afterwards... We have a new dealer who needs to build up his dealing skills, I allowed him to work the cash table and was sitting beside him mentoring him.

When this happened, 1st player says 'I got two pair', OP shows 1 pair and CO just pushed her cards face down away; as I was explaining to the dealer main pot goes to X/side pot to Y - I started saying "its a 4 heart board but no one has a heart so... " then CO picks up her cards again saying 'Oh! Wait! I DO have a heart!' and throwns down Qh.

Everyone then looked at me for a ruling and I had to allow the flush as the best hand to take both pots... While OP accepted my ruling, the other player who had lost a considerable amount of money already, got really narky with me (and still is bitter about it from all accounts ).

I accept I should have directed dealer to pick up CO's cards first before telling him what to do with the pots... but it happened.

Was I right or wrong to make this ruling in this instance?

Wrong to let a trainee dealer deal a cash game (I presume it was 1-2 NLHE?) where there was a "considerable" amount of money at stake.

[Flushdraw]

Wrong to let a trainee dealer deal a cash game (I presume it was 1-2 NLHE?) where there was a "considerable" amount of money at stake.

Was playing a 25c/50c game last saturday.

.

[DAMO72]

Wrong to let a trainee dealer deal a cash game (I presume it was 1-2 NLHE?) where there was a "considerable" amount of money at stake.

No it was a 25/50 cent game and it was something like a €12 pot. But i dont think the amount matters

[Electra Blue]

Wrong to let a trainee dealer deal a cash game (I presume it was 1-2 NLHE?) where there was a "considerable" amount of money at stake.

To be fair, the dealer was a volunteer. None of people involved in running IDP get paid - myself included. The club meets once a month to provide a 'sign language only' environment for deaf poker players. We barely rake in cash and charge very low registration fees - all of which goes back to IDP members in various forms e.g. free tickets in Satt games. But that's beside the point - we aim to follow the same rules and principals as a professional poker club or tournament and any ruling made should be correct and in the best interest of the game/players...

In this case the only person at fault here is me. I was responsible for not directing the dealer to muck the cards first and causing the CO to win the pot. I do not think it fair to point the finger at a trainee dealer who was not experienced enough to realise he had made a mistake.

I apologise to Ciaran and Donal for what happened, as a matter of goodwill I will allow both players one free 're-buy' token each in the next IDP Deepstack Sattellite game on 2nd October.

[sligoboi]

Where the hell is there a .25/.50 live cash game btw?

[ItFellOnDeafEars]

Just to state that I'm not interested in pointing the finger or playing the blame game and am defintely not interested in critizing those involved in the poker society, for its run by volunteers who don't get paid for putting on a game for the deaf community.

Thanks for your offer of a token Julianne. I'm going to decline it because I accepted your ruling at the time so you needn't obliged to compenstate me. Lol! I was a bit confused by a ruling I had read about sometime ago in a similar scenario that arose, hence why I sought clarificaiton on the ruling you made but it seems that you made the correct one. So no qualms there.

[curleywurley]

To be fair, the dealer was a volunteer. None of people involved in running IDP get paid - myself included. The club meets once a month to provide a 'sign language only' environment for deaf poker players. We barely rake in cash and charge very low registration fees - all of which goes back to IDP members in various forms e.g. free tickets in Satt games. But that's beside the point - we aim to follow the same rules and principals as a professional poker club or tournament and any ruling made should be correct and in the best interest of the game/players...

In this case the only person at fault here is me. I was responsible for not directing the dealer to muck the cards first and causing the CO to win the pot. I do not think it fair to point the finger at a trainee dealer who was not experienced enough to realise he had made a mistake.

I apologise to Ciaran and Donal for what happened, as a matter of goodwill I will allow both players one free 're-buy' token each in the next IDP Deepstack Sattellite game on 2nd October.

N1 and good luck to your society.
Killing cards is something dealers should be trained to do swiftly, and remember that a hand is truly dead, only when it can't be retrieved from the muck. So get your dealers to bury those cards in the muck, fast and deep lol.