My first hands post... Live, I flop gin

[sickhabbit]

K, never post here as a rule but interested what you guys think of this hand. It's not a major issue as it happens so infrequently and I'd rather concentrate on more common spots but I had a long discussion about it in the pub after and we can up with a few ways of playing it... You may say there is one one way to play this as it goes but please give it a shot.


5 handed, .50/1€ Live
BB has ~30€, UTG ~30, CO has ~45, button 70€ I'm on the SB I cover, button is a solid reg, doesn't make many/any moves afaik. 2 calls around the button who makes it 8, I have JJ and call, (didn't 3-bet cause didn't want to get into a 5 way donk-fest with JJ, which can happen). Folds all around, so ~19€ in the pot.

Flop J8J rainbow

Considering he is solid I can assume he has 22+ A9s+ AJo+.
Can I lead the flop? I'm assuming he c-bet 55+ approx 90% of his range, do I check and wait for c-bet?

Not use what my table image is but I'm a winner in cash and esp live. I don't think my image is crazy/donk.

[Guest]

K, never post here as a rule but interested what you guys think of this hand. It's not a major issue as it happens so infrequently and I'd rather concentrate on more common spots but I had a long discussion about it in the pub after and we can up with a few ways of playing it... You may say there is one one way to play this as it goes but please give it a shot.


5 handed, .50/1€ Live
BB has ~30€, UTG ~30, CO has ~45, button 70€ I'm on the SB I cover, button is a solid reg, doesn't make many/any moves afaik. 2 calls around the button who makes it 8, I have JJ and call, (didn't 3-bet cause didn't want to get into a 5 way donk-fest with JJ, which can happen). Folds all around, so ~19€ in the pot.

Flop J8J rainbow

Considering he is solid I can assume he has 22+ A9s+ AJo+.
Can I lead the flop? I'm assuming he c-bet 55+ approx 90% of his range, do I check and wait for c-bet?

Not use what my table image is but I'm a winner in cash and esp live. I don't think my image is crazy/donk.

would love him to have AJ here for the craic, I am checking the flop here and flat calling if he bets and leading into him on the turn and river provided he calls

[sickhabbit]

Hi, just putting in his whole PF perceived range smart arse.

[DAMO72]

Firstly his raise to 8 is way too much and just screams QQ+ given the read you have on him . I would usually lead out anyway when i flop a monster but i think you could afford to chk this one as far as the turn in hope of a push .

In answer to your question i always bet out a set and str8 hands . The only reason i wouldnt bet out is with the stone colds.

[sickhabbit]

Thanks D, only thing I will say is there may be a straddle on this, but I'm not 100%. CO usually does straddle but I don't remember this particular hand.

[Crow]

I couldnt lead out here, I'd be sick if everyone folded

Check and let him c-bet

[OasisKid]

would love him to have AJ here for the craic, I am checking the flop here and flat calling if he bets and leading into him on the turn and river provided he calls

How could he have AJ when the op has quad jacks?

[DrJFF]

Wait thought button had 45,

stil a 3bet/call pre for me tho,

check now,

[Crow]

Also, where is this 50/1 game?

[sickhabbit]

Normally it is a 3bet but really most time at this table and literally anything can happen, didn;t fancy mayhem with JJ.

I check, button checks behind... turn is a 7.

[DrJFF]

Normally it is a 3bet but really most time at this table and literally anything can happen, didn;t fancy mayhem with JJ.

I check, button checks behind... turn is a 7.

your going to get more mayhem by not 3betting surely, so if you make it 25, the original limpers have to move in or fold or are pratically all in with there stacks,

not 3betting pre here is mistake imo,


i would lead the turn for 10-15

[sickhabbit]

Fair enough on the 3bet, I check turn, button bets 3€ ( that's not a typo)I'm thinking of raising it to ~8-9 for shits and giggle but just flat. At this point I'm pretty sure hero does not have a made hand. So just wanna see if anything comes on river that may pay me off a little but there is no way I'm getting much from this anyway.

River is a 4... My move now?

[DAMO72]

Fair enough on the 3bet, I check turn, button bets 3€ ( that's not a typo)I'm thinking of raising it to ~8-9 for shits and giggle but just flat. At this point I'm pretty sure hero does not have a made hand. So just wanna see if anything comes on river that may pay me off a little but there is no way I'm getting much from this anyway.

River is a 4... My move now?

I dont think it matters what you do now , he is not putting any more in that pot . He is obv afraid of the j's so wont call a bet .
As described i put him on an under pair and will chk and hope he's good .


Edit : Please dont come back and say he had 56 . That would be just so funny.

[sickhabbit]

I lead for 11 or something stupid, TBH my hand was face up at this point, maybe no quads but defo a jack... He folded, flashed an Ace and told me I could have lead the flop...

[Mellor]

The flat pre is ok imo, you are OOP in a shallow game. I prefer to 3bet, but occasionall the that line depending on position and how others are likely to play the hand.

Check on flop is fine, as is a lead.
After he checks I always bet turn, getting to the river with 16 in the pot when you flop quads is not something you want to let happen.

When he makes a ridic bet with 3 you should of raised more, flating was silly considering they are no real draws out in your range. Flat lead looks way stronger than raising a 3 euro bet.
Make it 20, the hand plays itself after that.

[sickhabbit]

Yeah, agreed with the flatting 3€ bet not being a great idea, just felt was getting a fold no matter what and I'd rather him hit something on the river. But there are no real ways to get paid off this unless he's get a decent made hand anyway.

[NuckChorris]

Once the flop is checked you have to bet a decent amount on the turn to make it look like you're buying the pot or having a stab with small pocket pair. You only get action at this stage if he has a pair himself and as he's checked the flop he's not about to go mad on a bluff on the turn. I'd bet 12-15 on the turn and if you get called bet same or shove the river depending on which you think will get called.

I like the flat pre in this game as I play it myself often enough. If you re-raise you will get the shorties shoving all-in or else flatting for €20 and only putting in the last tenner if they hit knowing that the original raiser has to call too as he must have a good hand and will be getting a good price. As for the original raiser saying that he's have called on the flop that's just talk to try and rile you after the hand.

[sickhabbit]

Yeah, I'm not really worried about the 'you could have bet the folp', it's BS. And yeah, I can bet the turn and was thinking of it but again only getting action from decent hands... Which I felt he'd c-bet with anyway not no real point in leading the turn in this spot. The only think I really could have done that I didn't IMO is raising his 3€ turn bet.

[Mellor]

Yeah, agreed with the flatting 3€ bet not being a great idea, just felt was getting a fold no matter what and I'd rather him hit something on the river. But there are no real ways to get paid off this unless he's get a decent made hand anyway.

And yeah, I can bet the turn and was thinking of it but again only getting action from decent hands... Which I felt he'd c-bet with anyway not no real point in leading the turn in this spot. The only think I really could have done that I didn't IMO is raising his 3€ turn bet.

You're missing the point completly.
The whole aim is to get as many chips as possible. Not get called on the river so you can flip over quads and be all smug.
It doesn't matter if you fold out his missed hands on the turn, as you'll fold these out on most rivers too, just bet the turn and if he has a hands he can call, you make more in the river. Hands like small PPS were he makes a river on the house are a tiny part of possible hands, you lose more value trying to let these hit.

Bet the turn, and FFS raise that poxy e3 bet

[sickhabbit]

I agree with what you're saying in the most, I'll re-read your post and reply in the morning. And I'm sick of being told about the 3bet, I get it and I know it. They way this table plays does not make it an auto 3bet though.

[sickhabbit]

Regarding the flip over quads and be smug, that's just senseless and was certainty not in my thoughts. I just felt a bet on the turn would shut down needed action and could induce a bet from the button. I was right, but the bet was tiny. I think that only thing I could have done was raised at that point. But I accept that a turn bet can also be made here.

Thanks for your input.

[DAMO72]

I is struggling to understand how you make a river on the house ???

I must be doin it wrong

[ianmc38]

Your logic for flatting preflop is terrible - "i didnt want to get into a 5 way donkfest". What does that even mean?

If you think he only raises to 8 with QQ or better you should probably fold. Otherwise you're putting in more than 10% of your stack preflop in an attempt to set mine. Also, his raise is very big so there is no guarantee that anyone else will call his raise after you.

As played I would obviously check the flop. Leading would be bad especially given the fact you said he doesn't pull many/any moves.

I'd check the flop and reassess based on that.

[sickhabbit]

Have a look above post by NC regarding the flat... The game plays odd. But I do agree that it's totally standard to RR with JJ.

[ianmc38]

Have a look above post by NC regarding the flat... The game plays odd. But I do agree that it's totally standard to RR with JJ.

It's an awful post. Someone putting in 20/30 of their stack preflop with a much weaker range is the stuff of dreams, not something that should entice you to call off more than 10% of your stack preflop when you're set mining. This is really basic stuff.

[sickhabbit]

NO, and I know where you're coming from, there is not much more I like than getting JJ v shorties. In the OP I say I normally 3bet in this spot but didn't and was looking for thoughts on the post flop action.

On a side note, you're use of words like awful/terrible and expressions like "What does that even mean?" make you come across like an arrogant child. It's partly the reason I don't bother posting here much. Thanks for your input. I see it a lot on here and it's quite sad.

Take care now.

[sligoboi]

I agree that there can be a lot of sniping and what appear to me to be personal agendas but you can't really expect to post a hand where there is a glaring error pre flop and not have people focus on it. The fact you flop a monster is irrelevant and in fact prob ensures you get paid less than if you got it in pre as there's so few hands that pay off on that flop.

[sickhabbit]

But you can comment 'as played' without banging out the same mantra, you're a retard for not raising the PF etc. I just thought I might get a few different POVs on it, I shan't make the mistake again rest assured.

[NuckChorris]

It's an awful post. Someone putting in 20/30 of their stack preflop with a much weaker range is the stuff of dreams, not something that should entice you to call off more than 10% of your stack preflop when you're set mining. This is really basic stuff.

wasn't saying that he should be set mining with the JJ but waiting for a flop and shipping and getting snap-called by a6/7/8 with top Pair would be standard. Against these I'd get it I'm happily enough with a K or Q on board 80% of the time. You say it sounds like a dream game and it does get to this stage most nights for an hour or so but there are 4 -5 hours of torture around this that make it not worthwhile for me.

[BobSloane]

First you come across as having a real chip on your shoulder. Just saying as you may not be aware of it.

As for the hand,

pre - pretty obv 3b. You are oop shallow with all players and could well go multiway if you dont 3b ( which is apparently what you dont want)

postflop - you can get his stack on two streets with just one bet on each as pot is 19 and he has 62. So if you can get 15 in on one street there will be 47 to go into 49 on the other or something like that

flop - Really obv check - you say you expect him to cbet 90% of his range - you have the deck crushed

turn - Really obv bet imo. There are now lots of possible gutshots, maybe a fd..? His check back on the flop would indicate some sort of sd value so he may have a pair or AK,AQ that he'll peel with. After failing to bet and he throws you a lifeline by betting $3 raise ffs!

river - whatever. springing to life now is pretty gay. I prob check again if i had checked flop and turn

dont get too bogged down with making the max when you flop quads. tbf there are a couple of thread types that most players(I think) dont have a lot of patience for. One is the "Ive got the second nuts can I fold?" which rears its head in fold a set/fold KK pre type threads. Another is the "I flop quads and my opponent folded boohoo"
You played the hand fairly poorly on all streets imo although your flop check is good i suppose. You got decent advice from the players here who replied - there just isn't that much to say. And dont be so touchy - no one is going to suck your dick on the theory forums. Words like awful and terrible are fine here. I've posted plenty of hands and had actions described as terrible - the first time it happened my mum came in and I was crying and I told her what happened and she looked at the hh and told me to cop myself on and stop raising for info and gave me a clip around the ear. Then the old man came in from milking the cows and she told him about it and they lolled and shouted epic fail at me all evening

[sickhabbit]

Thanks Bob, I totally agree re the PF bet, it was my fourth hand at table and I only knew two players, just wanted to flat and reeval.. But I understand that it doesn't make for sensible reading.

I don't agree with the turn bet but I think I should have raised his. Don't think I was going to get any value from him unless he had something better the AQ/AK/AT. No choice but to bet the river however there probably is little point as I'm not getting paid.

The rest of your post is cool, it's just a personal pet hate that I should prob' just get over, I forget where I'm posting sometimes.

Also, regarding the set-mining thing, I was quad mining not set-mining.

[Guest]

lol bob nice post. Spot on though. I remember thinking they were a bunch of ignorant feckers when I started posting years ago but mostly its just people who like to see the game played right and aren't going to nanny people looking for advice.
Not Roadsweeper though, he's genuinely ignorant.

[ianmc38]

NO, and I know where you're coming from, there is not much more I like than getting JJ v shorties. In the OP I say I normally 3bet in this spot but didn't and was looking for thoughts on the post flop action.

Just because you say you only want advice on postflop play doesn't mean that your preflop play should not be open to scrutiny. Fixing one hole while leaving another gaping one wide open won't improve your poker play and my assumption is that you are here to improve at poker.

On a side note, you're use of words like awful/terrible and expressions like "What does that even mean?" make you come across like an arrogant child. It's partly the reason I don't bother posting here much. Thanks for your input. I see it a lot on here and it's quite sad.

When i said what does that even mean, it was a genuine question. The part i quoted makes abaolsutely no sense to me. I actually reread it numerous times and still can't decipher the meaning.

I like to give honest feedback as I have done for many years on these forums. Your logic was awful end of story. There is no more appropraite word in the English language to describe it. I'm sorry that you think this behaviour comes across as childlike when in fact it's simply an honest critique of your play/logic in this hand.

[Mellor]

One of the best ways to improve your game is to grow a thick skin,
if you make a bad play, there is no point in anyone overlookin the fact.
The hand is over, st least learn from it

[Zod]

One of the best ways to improve your game is to grow a thick skin,
if you make a bad play, there is no point in anyone overlookin the fact.
The hand is over, st least learn from it

well, he has said that he can see how he could have played the hand better.

[Mellor]

well, he has said that he can see how he could have played the hand better.

Well surely that was implied my the fact that he posted it here in the first place.
But when people offered advice, albeit quite harsh, he didn't exactly recieve it very well.