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    Whats our best line on turn

    No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 40/80 Blinds (10 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    MP3 (t4865)
    Hero (CO) (t2410)
    Button (t4525)
    SB (t2080)
    BB (t1500)
    UTG (t6460)
    UTG+1 (t8175)
    UTG+2 (t3225)
    MP1 (t3030)
    MP2 (t4840)

    Hero's M: 20.08

    Preflop: Hero is CO with 9, 9
    UTG bets t240, 5 folds, Hero calls t240, 1 fold, SB calls t200, 1 fold

    Flop: (t800) J, 4, 6 (3 players)
    SB checks, UTG bets t480, Hero calls t480, 1 fold

    Turn: (t1760) 3 (2 players)
    UTG checks, Hero bets t1690 (All-In), 1 fold

    Total pot: t1760

    Im not a big fan of shoving the turn here but checking is leaving him with a big chance of catching up. There is no way you can bet/fold so its either shove or check and evaluate the river.

    Im not sure if this makes a difference but its a rebuy game. Im not willing to rebuy as i satted in.
    Last edited by tipp86; 03-08-10, 11:48.
    Pm for rakeback deals

    #2
    cbet into 2 players by villain looks strong i mite havefolded flop but obv wasnt becuse he ends up folding turn.
    When we shove are we getting better hands to fold Jx etc. prob not and are we getting value from worse hands not sure either.
    Maybe he calls w AKo and FD.
    In saying that i guess the shove is ok to protect our hand vs that drawing range and overcards.
    There are a fair few scary rivers for you so shoving does make your life easier.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by tipp86 View Post

      Im not sure if this makes a difference but its a rebuy game. Im not willing to rebuy as i satted in.
      It makes all the difference IMO, don't sat into rebuys.
      Turning millions into thousands

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post
        It makes all the difference IMO, don't sat into rebuys.
        I agree to some extent. Its obviously not the ideal way to play the game.

        I dont think there is any harm in satting into ipoker $50 & 100 rebuy games. There will be a decent % of the field in a similar position. Lets say i satt in for $10 to a $50 or 100 games i am pretty free rolling it.

        I bubbled an irish open seat this year through a $200 rebuy game where i wasnt rebuying or topping up. I also took down a 1.5k seat for an ipoker game in a similar way.

        Its not like id ever buy into a game directly that i couldnt rebuy.
        Pm for rakeback deals

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by tipp86 View Post
          I agree to some extent. Its obviously not the ideal way to play the game.

          I dont think there is any harm in satting into ipoker $50 & 100 rebuy games. There will be a decent % of the field in a similar position. Lets say i satt in for $10 to a $50 or 100 games i am pretty free rolling it.

          I bubbled an irish open seat this year through a $200 rebuy game where i wasnt rebuying or topping up. I also took down a 1.5k seat for an ipoker game in a similar way.

          Its not like id ever buy into a game directly that i couldnt rebuy.
          I think you are at such a huge disadvantage against those playing within their rolls when there are plenty of decent value FO's to sat into.
          Turning millions into thousands

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post
            I think you are at such a huge disadvantage against those playing within their rolls when there are plenty of decent value FO's to sat into.
            Few and far between on ipoker imo. Obv i would have a wider choice of tournaments if that was what i play but its cash so i work with what i have on there.
            Pm for rakeback deals

            Comment


              #7
              i suppose if its just a rebuy its not terrible to play it, but if its a rebuy / add-on or you get extra chips for your rebuy above the starting stack then you shouldn't be playing it unless you're willing to rebuy. either way its not ideal though, but I think you know that.

              Comment


                #8
                Am I the only one who prefers a re-raise pre-flop? I know you have position but it maybe invited the sb to come along by flatting. Three way pot with 9's, you must hit your set or fold if you don't re-raise. Well that's my opinion anyway. As it stands now you must begrudgingly give it up.

                Comment


                  #9
                  No dont like 3 betting pre because we have 30 bb's and you should be 3 betting with the intention of getting it in with that stack size. The original raiser was utg, so if he re shoves we're almost definetly at best flipping.

                  I'd shove the turn and hope to be called by A high if he's bad

                  Comment


                    #10
                    On the turn I would shove too. Your call on the flop with a player behind looks like AJ or sets imo. The fact that it's a rebuy doesn't make a huge difference, it might mean you're called with 10's or any J but you are also called with 5's 7's 8's AK,AQ sometimes too.

                    If I was to play the hand though, I'd 3bet all in preflop or as played I'd fold to the c-bet on the flop especially with a player behind.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Really dont like 3 betting pre.
                      Pm for rakeback deals

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Turn shove is fine.
                        Don't 3 bet pre.
                        Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

                        Comment


                          #13
                          You played it fine.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by tipp86 View Post
                            Really dont like 3 betting pre.
                            Why not?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                              Why not?
                              I just realise how terrible a comment that was without expanding.

                              Ok lets say we 3 bet to 690 what do we achieve.

                              Ok utg has 3 options fold call raise.

                              1 Fold obv wins us 360 which is not a bad result.

                              2 Call our 3 bet i think puts us in a horrible spot do we c bet 2/3 overs on flop. Lets say there is only one over we c bet and he flats again pretty horrible.

                              3 Ok if he 4 bets our 3 bet we obv have to fold bye bye 640.

                              Options 1 and 3 are simple and i feel especially been an utg raise we can often be 4bet. Meaning that everytime he folds we win 360 and everytime he 4 bets we lose 640.

                              Option 2 is more complex. I could get more detailed i feel but i wont for the moment.

                              Like i just feel a 3 bet all in is just a pointless move with 30bbs. Doing this against a utg raiser is not going to be a long term profitable move.

                              I may consider the movie with a raise a call and antes in play
                              Pm for rakeback deals

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by gorrrr72 View Post
                                Why not?
                                Depends on UTGs opening and calling range obv.

                                When UTG folds we win $360, when UTG calls and we win the showdown we win $2530 but when UTG calls and we lose the showdown we lose $2410.

                                So:
                                EV(folds) = $360
                                EV(win) = $2530
                                EV(lose) = -$2410
                                P(folds) is the probability that UTG will fold (between 0 and 1, 0 corresponds to 0% and 1 corresponds to 100%)
                                P(calls) is the probability that UTG will call and since his only options are call or fold, P(folds)+P(calls) = 1. If he calls 40% (0.4) of the time it means he must fold 60%(0.6) of the time.

                                Overall our expected value is:

                                EV = P(folds)*EV(folds) + P(calls)*EV(calls)

                                and P(calls) = 1-P(folds) and EV(folds) = $360 so the equation becomes:

                                EV = P(folds)*360 + (1-P(folds))*EV(calls)

                                Lets say this guys three bet calling range is 5% of all hands then we can work out what happens when he calls.

                                Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

                                678,072,384 games 0.797 secs 850,780,908 games/sec

                                Board:
                                Dead:

                                equity win tie pots won pots tied
                                Hand 0: 61.800% 61.60% 00.20% 417677508 1368900.00 { TT+, AJs+, AQo+ }
                                Hand 1: 38.200% 38.00% 00.20% 257657076 1368900.00 { 99 }

                                So our probability to win the hand when called is 38.200% or 0.38200

                                So
                                EV(calls) = P(win)*EV(win) + P(lose)*EV(lose)
                                = 0.382*(2530) + 0.618*(-2410)
                                = -522

                                Substituting this back into our original equation we get:
                                EV = P(folds)*360 + (1-P(folds))*(-522)
                                = P(folds)*360 -522 + 522*P(folds)
                                = 882*P(folds) - 522

                                The breakeven point is where our EV is 0 so
                                0 = 882*P(folds) - 522
                                522 = 882*P(folds)
                                P(folds) = 0.59183

                                So if he is opening 13% of hands or wider while calling only 5% shove is good.

                                13% = something like 77+,A8s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KJo+. He's UTG...... hummmm?
                                Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  nothing wrong with the turn shove imo. Dont like a 3bet pf either for reasons stated.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Thanks Wombat and Tipp. 2 good answers, I'm a fan of 3 bet all-in in those circumstances in rebuys, but usually I have less big blinds so this example was probably too much to shove. I still think it's close though. I really don't like the flat on the flop without reads because at that stage you have 720 chips in without really knowing where you are. Do you feel committed at that stage?
                                    What do you do if he shoves a blank turn?

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      I fold a turn shove. I guess its gaining information. Its a very blind move to shove pre. I feel most guys who fire 2 barrels here from utg probably can beat me mind you not allways.
                                      Pm for rakeback deals

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by tipp86 View Post
                                        I fold a turn shove. I guess its gaining information. Its a very blind move to shove pre. I feel most guys who fire 2 barrels here from utg probably can beat me mind you not allways.
                                        I know what you mean, sometimes you just have to decide that you're probably beaten. I would prefer to be deeper to flat the flop though, but meh.. it worked out.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          If you shove over his cbet on the flop, cant see him calling with worse.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            meh, I like checking turn, what worse calls your shove?

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by tipp86 View Post
                                              No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 40/80 Blinds (10 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

                                              MP3 (t4865)
                                              Hero (CO) (t2410)
                                              Button (t4525)
                                              SB (t2080)
                                              BB (t1500)
                                              UTG (t6460)
                                              UTG+1 (t8175)
                                              UTG+2 (t3225)
                                              MP1 (t3030)
                                              MP2 (t4840)

                                              Hero's M: 20.08

                                              Preflop: Hero is CO with 9, 9
                                              UTG bets t240, 5 folds, Hero calls t240, 1 fold, SB calls t200, 1 fold

                                              Flop: (t800) J, 4, 6 (3 players)
                                              SB checks, UTG bets t480, Hero calls t480, 1 fold

                                              Turn: (t1760) 3 (2 players)
                                              UTG checks, Hero bets t1690 (All-In), 1 fold

                                              Total pot: t1760

                                              Im not a big fan of shoving the turn here but checking is leaving him with a big chance of catching up. There is no way you can bet/fold so its either shove or check and evaluate the river.

                                              Im not sure if this makes a difference but its a rebuy game. Im not willing to rebuy as i satted in.
                                              I think you played the hand fine up untill the turn, betting the turn here you are in 'no mans land' as your uncertain whether you have the best hand or your being trapped therefore its the best play to check behind and go to the river!!

                                              On the river it is hugely important to watch your opponents bet size and lenght to make a bet if he indeed does as its either a value bet or a bluff disguised as a value bet... tip most of the time its a bluff when they bet faster!!

                                              You also said mate that there is no way you can bet/fold and if you bet and get shoved on your defo dead so check behind is the better play especially as your on 1 bullet also!!

                                              I would never 3bet a utg raiser with 99 without some sort of read this early so in my eyes ya played it great bar the turn bet...

                                              Hope you shipped the rebuy cause that would be sooooo sick on 1 bullet!!!

                                              Oh and also if this is a big enough rebuy with decent players you might get called on the river by A high if its checked to you as it was drawish heavy flop.... I'd be thinking about the sick call with ace high in this spot... God I love a good 'sick call'.... lol
                                              Last edited by blaaaaaaah; 10-08-10, 00:18.
                                              Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.

                                              My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
                                              My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                I check back too I think. He probably has no more then 6 outs, and possibly 2. And he might bluff/brainfart the river and we can snap off his bluffs.

                                                That said, if you think he can call with worse then the shove is ok I guess.

                                                I never 3bet pre in this spot either. Burning money imo.

                                                Comment

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