Exposing cards.

[connie147]

I see from the "proposed rules" put up by Carfax, the exposed cards ruling is defined as follows:

"31 Exposing Cards
A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand."

This doesnt differentiate between cards being exposed by accident, and cards being exposed on purpose.

Example 1__ During the world series, i was reading up on the various hands as being recorded on pokernews. One was quite simple, where a player in the BB (seat 9) never saw seat 1 raising, and when it came to his turn, he mistakingly thought that everyone had folded into his bb, so he turned his hand face up (KK I believe), bemoaning the fact that he was getting no action. At the end of the hand he had to suffer a penalty of 1 lap (or 2 laps) of the table, as in the rule above.

Example 2-- Folded around to the sb and he shoves all-in to the BB. The BB goes into the tank and says he has a big hand here. He turn over Ks-Qs, and still hasnt decided whether he will call or not. He looks for a reaction from the sb before he makes his decision. (sb was shoving a bag of spanners and KQ was good).

Now, according to the above rule, there is no difference in the way the players are treated for turning over their cards, whereas I consider there is a huge difference in the way these two pots are played. Is this rule now saying that a player can turn his cards face up to get a read from an opponnent when he is last to act and facing an all-in bet, and all he will suffer is a penalty of a missed lap?

I was always under the impression that if a player turned his cards face up intentionally (as in example 2), then his hand is declared dead as it is a type of angleshooting. (Intenionally is the important word here)

[Starvin Marvin]

I think the TD should use common sense and no penalty should occur in example 1.

Personally i think example 2 should be allowed.
Same as if i shove and someone is debating a call and asks me to show one i should be allowed to if i want imo. (obv if we are the only 2 remaining in the hand)

[TheTD]

I see from the "proposed rules" put up by Carfax, the exposed cards ruling is defined as follows:

"31 Exposing Cards
A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand."

This doesnt differentiate between cards being exposed by accident, and cards being exposed on purpose.

Example 1__ During the world series, i was reading up on the various hands as being recorded on pokernews. One was quite simple, where a player in the BB (seat 9) never saw seat 1 raising, and when it came to his turn, he mistakingly thought that everyone had folded into his bb, so he turned his hand face up (KK I believe), bemoaning the fact that he was getting no action. At the end of the hand he had to suffer a penalty of 1 lap (or 2 laps) of the table, as in the rule above.

Example 2-- Folded around to the sb and he shoves all-in to the BB. The BB goes into the tank and says he has a big hand here. He turn over Ks-Qs, and still hasnt decided whether he will call or not. He looks for a reaction from the sb before he makes his decision. (sb was shoving a bag of spanners and KQ was good).

Now, according to the above rule, there is no difference in the way the players are treated for turning over their cards, whereas I consider there is a huge difference in the way these two pots are played. Is this rule now saying that a player can turn his cards face up to get a read from an opponnent when he is last to act and facing an all-in bet, and all he will suffer is a penalty of a missed lap?

I was always under the impression that if a player turned his cards face up intentionally (as in example 2), then his hand is declared dead as it is a type of angleshooting. (Intenionally is the important word here)

The fact of the matter is that we as TD's can not decide what is intent or not no mater how obvious it seams, players are responsible to know what is going on at the table at all times exposing your cards is against the rules the severity of the penalty is up to you as TD .. but a penalty should be given..

J

[carfax]

This doesnt differentiate between cards being exposed by accident, and cards being exposed on purpose.

Hi Connie,

Just to reword what John is saying there. For the purpose of writing this into a rule-set that is accessible to players we cannot differentiate between what is accidental and what is cheating (as angle-shooters could too easily take advantage).

We will be able to go into more detail in our TD's booklet (basically Robert's Rules with specific recommendations/ instructions for Irish TDs).

Cheers,
Stephen.

[sickhabbit]

HI, we play at work every lunch break and one of the big things that comes up is the right to show somebody your cards if it's 2 handed. One guy like to show one card when either he is all in or his opponent is. He doesn't understand why getting a read by showing his cards when the other guy shoves in a angle, he reckons it's a honest read.

Can you provide me a reason why it is an angle? I just tell him that the game is dealt with 2 down cards and the rule is that that must stay as down cards (holdem obv').

Thanks.

[curleywurley]

HI, we play at work every lunch break and one of the big things that comes up is the right to show somebody your cards if it's 2 handed. One guy like to show one card when either he is all in or his opponent is. He doesn't understand why getting a read by showing his cards when the other guy shoves in a angle, he reckons it's a honest read.

Can you provide me a reason why it is an angle? I just tell him that the game is dealt with 2 down cards and the rule is that that must stay as down cards (holdem obv').

Thanks.

afaik, in a cash game, if the pot is heads-up, then any talk or showing of cards is allowed. If the hand is multi-way it's not allowed because the player doing the talking or showing may influence the decision of the third party involved in the pot, which is unfair on the second party.
I understand, but am not 100% sure, that in a tournament, you are not allowed to show/declare your hand at all, and that's where penalties come into play.
1 round for the first time, 2 rounds for the second or whatever is appropriate.
C

[NewApproach]

I see from the "proposed rules" put up by Carfax, the exposed cards ruling is defined as follows:

"31 Exposing Cards
A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand."

This doesnt differentiate between cards being exposed by accident, and cards being exposed on purpose.

Example 1__ During the world series, i was reading up on the various hands as being recorded on pokernews. One was quite simple, where a player in the BB (seat 9) never saw seat 1 raising, and when it came to his turn, he mistakingly thought that everyone had folded into his bb, so he turned his hand face up (KK I believe), bemoaning the fact that he was getting no action. At the end of the hand he had to suffer a penalty of 1 lap (or 2 laps) of the table, as in the rule above.

Example 2-- Folded around to the sb and he shoves all-in to the BB. The BB goes into the tank and says he has a big hand here. He turn over Ks-Qs, and still hasnt decided whether he will call or not. He looks for a reaction from the sb before he makes his decision. (sb was shoving a bag of spanners and KQ was good).

Now, according to the above rule, there is no difference in the way the players are treated for turning over their cards, whereas I consider there is a huge difference in the way these two pots are played. Is this rule now saying that a player can turn his cards face up to get a read from an opponnent when he is last to act and facing an all-in bet, and all he will suffer is a penalty of a missed lap?

I was always under the impression that if a player turned his cards face up intentionally (as in example 2), then his hand is declared dead as it is a type of angleshooting. (Intenionally is the important word here)

Surely the bolded word is the key in this rule Connie? So that the TD has discretion which can be used in situations like the ones you outlined.

[TheTD]

afaik, in a cash game, if the pot is heads-up, then any talk or showing of cards is allowed. If the hand is multi-way it's not allowed because the player doing the talking or showing may influence the decision of the third party involved in the pot, which is unfair on the second party.
I understand, but am not 100% sure, that in a tournament, you are not allowed to show/declare your hand at all, and that's where penalties come into play.
1 round for the first time, 2 rounds for the second or whatever is appropriate.
C

Showing your cards is not allowed at all when action is still pending, whether in cash or in tournament. The only player allowed to see your hand is you, one player to a hand is the rule.

J

[curleywurley]

Showing your cards is not allowed at all when action is still pending, whether in cash or in tournament. The only player allowed to see your hand is you, one player to a hand is the rule.

J

Really? I understood that you can show your hand when heads-up, but forfeit any betting or raising for that entire hand. I think thats the rule in Vegas anyway.