NL Tournament Raises - Pre Flop

[markc]

Reading a bit of theory recently. Just wondering what views people have on pre flop raising in NL tourneys. Harrington is a fan of varying raises 3-6 times the big blind whereas in some newer books (Full tilt/Kill everyone) they suggest raising a standard amount every time regardless of the strength of a hand. Obviously many factors come into it but just wondering what people think of the general principal of varying the raise or keeping it constant (relative to blind size). Opinion appreciated...

[Moneymaker]

Opening the pot I range from 2.5x to 3.5x.

I'd usually add an extra blind per limper(i.e 25/50, guy limps in, i'd make it 200 rather then 150, and so on)

It's definitely optimal to keep your raise sizes the same as people will have a harder time putting you on a range. Like if you make it 5x with 66-JJ, and smaller with KK,AA and AK people that are paying attention will cop on pretty fast.

[BuChan]

eh, it depends. varied to suit table dynamics/different stages in tourney. often you can get away with minraise steals around finaltable/bubbles etc. in early stages in low stakes tourneys players can be so loose pre that potting or x4/x5 big hands will still get action.

[Angry-Ball]

chris ferguson in that fulltilt book that you are reading, would say to vary your opening bet pre by table position ie. if you are utg you could open 2x as an utg raise shows alot of strength and if you are in LP you should make it 3x as this could be seen as a weak hand and you want to make it as difficult as possible for anyone else to enter the pot with less than premium hands.


raise 3x pre if there is no antes once the antes come in 2.5x is plenty, this is probably the best as it gives very little away about your hand other than the fact that it is good enough to open with.


some (one) people (damo)will burst on here in the minute advocating if you are opening with weak cards open for 5,6,7,or 8x and if you are holding a premium hand like AA, 2x is loads. but donot listen to this seriously flawed suggestion

[Starvin Marvin]

Raising more without antes than with is equally flawed.

As is Fergusons advice imo.

[TommyGunne]

chris ferguson in that fulltilt book that you are reading, would say to vary your opening bet pre by table position ie. if you are utg you could open 2x as an utg raise shows alot of strength and if you are in LP you should make it 3x as this could be seen as a weak hand and you want to make it as difficult as possible for anyone else to enter the pot with less than premium hands.


raise 3x pre if there is no antes once the antes come in 2.5x is plenty, this is probably the best as it gives very little away about your hand other than the fact that it is good enough to open with.


some (one) people (damo)will burst on here in the minute advocating if you are opening with weak cards open for 5,6,7,or 8x and if you are holding a premium hand like AA, 2x is loads. but donot listen to this seriously flawed suggestion

If this is what Ferguson suggested, then I think he has it backwards. You should raise less from LP.

[Angry-Ball]

If this is what Ferguson suggested, then I think he has it backwards. You should raise less from LP.

yeah something along those lines.

why would you say raise less from late position?

[Moneymaker]

yeah something along those lines.

why would you say raise less from late position?

Because you should be opening an awful lot more would be one reason.

[Angry-Ball]

Because you should be opening an awful lot more would be one reason.

that makes no sense whatsoever to me. are you saying that because you are opening more pots in LP that it would cost to much over a session to raise 3x every time, so you only raise 2x and you would save x amt of bb's over the session

also you say thats one reason what are the rest?
i would be interested to know the theory behind this

[Mellor]

I'm with MM and TG, Min raising UTG (2x) would be terrible imo, any lower than normal from EP is bad because it will induce more callers than a larger bet, you are OOP and have more people to get through. Raise a normal amount, for me its 4x-3x-2.5x as the tourney progress and the stacks get shallower.

As for raising lower in LP, you are in position, and have less people to get through, mostly the blinds.

Why would you raise less with antes in play?
As I said, I raise less in later stages, often 2.5x when the antes in play, but this is because the stacks are shallower NOT because their are antes.
Interested to hear your reasoning for that one. Mainly because in deep tourneys, antes are often in play early and the PF pot can be twice the size due to antes, this already decreases the pot odds, I see no need to do it further by dropping a bet.

[TommyGunne]

I think you should raise bigger in EP to discourage people behind you from exploiting position. In LP this is less of a concern. You can often minraise your BTN and stuff, cos getting a caller, even though they have a stronger range than yours, isn't really a bad result. The more likely you are to be IP, the deeper effective stacks you want. All your raise sizes should be less IP than OOP. Or if you have a really good, aggro person on your left, one of many adjustments you can make is opening a little larger in conjunction with opening tighter as a pretty defensive strategy.

Just thinking about it, minraising EP is going to get you into a lot of potential trouble, where its not really that much of a worry in LP.

[scouser in dub]

one of the reasons argued for raising less with antes is that you should be looking to steal more and thus the bet size should reduce, which is also, as mentioned above, why you should be opening slightly less in LP than in EP, that said the dislike for minraises seems to be decreasing and seems a continuation of the smaller and smaller opens. People would often open 2.1x or something just to not be seen min raising and that's kinda moot now

obviously as also mentioned as stack depths get shallower open raises should also get smaller the value of the steal increases as a % of your stack and you should also be looking to minimise the % of your stack you look to risk. One of the issues with this and the adjustments you have to make is whether the smaller open widens peoples ranges sufficently that you have to raise call some stuff you could possibly r/f if you opened slightly larger despite the better price you're getting

[gorrrr72]

3x for 1st level, 2.5 - 2.75 for 2nd level, 2.5x for the next few until blinds are big 1000/2000 etc I'll change to 2.2 - 2.4x from any position.
Add .5 to 1 extra blinds for any limpers.
This is all assuming I'm playing above 25 - 30bb. If the total raise including limpers is 20% or more of my stack then I just shove.

[DAMO72]

chris ferguson in that fulltilt book that you are reading, would say to vary your opening bet pre by table position ie. if you are utg you could open 2x as an utg raise shows alot of strength and if you are in LP you should make it 3x as this could be seen as a weak hand and you want to make it as difficult as possible for anyone else to enter the pot with less than premium hands.


raise 3x pre if there is no antes once the antes come in 2.5x is plenty, this is probably the best as it gives very little away about your hand other than the fact that it is good enough to open with.


some (one) people (damo)will burst on here in the minute advocating if you are opening with weak cards open for 5,6,7,or 8x and if you are holding a premium hand like AA, 2x is loads. but donot listen to this seriously flawed suggestion

LOL , that was very bold of you . How did i miss this thread until now.

Touche.