AQ on KKQ flop

[AndyFatBastard]

Villian is a complete unknown. Zero hands played with him. Fairly certain I am a complete unknown to him also. Was a bit uncertain on the flop and all over the place on the river. Any thoughts?


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($191.40)
BB ($25)
Hero (UTG) ($58.80)
MP ($58.60)
CO ($87.75)
Button ($51.05)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, Q
Hero bets $1.75, MP calls $1.75, 4 folds

Flop: ($4.25) K, K, Q (2 players)
Hero bets $2.50, MP raises to $7, Hero calls $4.50 (???)

Turn: ($18.25) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $9, Hero calls $9

River: ($36.25) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $40.85 (All-In), Hero ???

Total pot: $117.95 | Rake: $3

[Starvin Marvin]

Unlikely he raises the flop with a King but possible.

JT got there on the turn and the flush got there on the river so theres not much you beat. Turn bet sizing is very small which looks kinda weak but so is his flop raise so maybe it means nothing.

Your hand is pretty face up as a Queen or perhaps AA so he may be trying to get you to fold those but with no history you cant really call.

[Bubbleking]

why did you bet the flop?

[40something]

Villian is a complete unknown. Zero hands played with him. Fairly certain I am a complete unknown to him also. Was a bit uncertain on the flop and all over the place on the river. Any thoughts?


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($191.40)
BB ($25)
Hero (UTG) ($58.80)
MP ($58.60)
CO ($87.75)
Button ($51.05)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, Q
Hero bets $1.75, MP calls $1.75, 4 folds

Flop: ($4.25) K, K, Q (2 players)
Hero bets $2.50, MP raises to $7, Hero calls $4.50 (???)

Turn: ($18.25) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $9, Hero calls $9

River: ($36.25) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $40.85 (All-In), Hero ???

Total pot: $117.95 | Rake: $3

I fold everytime here against an unknown. I might 3 bet him small on the flop just to be sure he has the K though, then I don't have horrible river shove decisions

[Starvin Marvin]

Never 3bet the flop here, raising for info bad etc.

I would check call the flop here sometimes against certain people though.

[Bubbleking]

Never 3bet the flop here, raising for info bad etc.

I would check call the flop here sometimes against certain people though.

betting the flop at all here is bad IMO. your never getting value from a worse hand and we have the Ad which cuts down on te amount of diamond draws he can have

[Starvin Marvin]

betting the flop at all here is bad IMO. your never getting value from a worse hand and we have the Ad which cuts down on te amount of diamond draws he can have

Its possible to get value from flush draws, straight draws and random floats and gutshots and stuff.

It is going to make the hand hard to play though because if he raises it sucks and even if he flats you have to check all turns and if the oppponent is decent will put a ton of pressure on you on turn and river like has happened here.

Default is to check here though just thinking about it.

[AndyFatBastard]

why did you bet the flop?

For value from worse queens, underpairs, flush draws, straight draws and gutshots.

[RoadSweeper]

betting the flop at all here is bad IMO. your never getting value from a worse hand and we have the Ad which cuts down on te amount of diamond draws he can have

This is a pretty standard bet. He will call with almost all pocket pairs, worse queens, JT, gutshots etc...

I think its a fold on the turn. I wouldn't be happy folding on the turn vs a half pot bet but probably should. I would definitely fold the river now

[Moneymaker]

I would bet the flop. Can't see why you wouldn't on that kind of board tbh.

Easy fold on the river, unless he has total air you can't beat anything.

[TommyGunne]

RS is obv right, and have no idea what is going on before his post.

[Mellor]

Bet flop 100% of the time
I call turn,
And always fold river

[cardshark202]

Yeah wtf lads, flop is an easy bet. Loads of value there.

[Hectorjelly]

I would nearly always check the flop, you can't get three streets of value and the flop is a very good place to check. Most tags will bet the flop (hence all the comments above), which is another good reason to check.

[cardshark202]

I would nearly always check the flop, you can't get three streets of value and the flop is a very good place to check. Most tags will bet the flop (hence all the comments above), which is another good reason to check.

I don't like checking the flop as you lose value against a lot of players who will peel paired boards once with underpairs as well as making a standard call with worse Qs and you risk getting bluffed off the best hand should your opponent take a stab at the flop and continue on later streets. Against some players I will go for value on flop and turn, others I might bet check bet, or bet check check with a view to c/c the river depending on what cards falls.

I generally prefer to bet flop + turn then check and decide on river depending on opponent and board texture. You get 2 streets of value from other queens and at least one from smaller pairs and draws.

As for this hand, I'm definitely happy to c/f turn, especially holding the Ad which cuts out a lot of fd combos and with the 9 hitting the turn completing JT. Folding vs the flop raise is worth considering but I peel given the smallish raise.

[40something]

Never 3bet the flop here, raising for info bad etc.

Does everyone agree with this?

Any half decent player in position is going to auto-raise our flop cbet on this board. If we 3bet say €18 total villan will only ever call us/4 bet us with the K or pQQ and that's fine, otherwise he folds and we scoop. This is 0.50c n/l, we're not up against Ivey or Hanson.

[TommyGunne]

[quote=30something;105076]

Never 3bet the flop here, raising for info bad etc./QUOTE]

Does everyone agree with this?

Any half decent player in position is going to auto-raise our flop cbet on this board. If we 3bet say €18 total villan will only ever call us/4 bet us with the K or pQQ and that's fine, otherwise he folds and we scoop. This is 0.50c n/l, we're not up against Ivey or Hanson.

Yeah, I'd agree with Mr. Marvin anyway.

Why would you turn AQ into a bluff here? I don't get it. Why not do it with air or something?

[cardshark202]

Never 3bet the flop here, raising for info bad etc.

Does everyone agree with this?

Any half decent player in position is going to auto-raise our flop cbet on this board. If we 3bet say €18 total villan will only ever call us/4 bet us with the K or pQQ and that's fine, otherwise he folds and we scoop. This is 0.50c n/l, we're not up against Ivey or Hanson.

Oh jesus

3betting the flop is TERRIBLE. You've just given us a great reason NOT to 3bet the flop. Lets' look at this point by point.

1: I think you will find you are not auto-raised by half decent players on the flop cbet. Why would he 'auto-raise' you? You might be bluff-raised occasionally but your opponent will not be flinging chips at this flop every time you cbet.

2: You want to 3bet so that your opponent will only continue when he has a BETTER hand?? This is mental. Anytime you find yourself making a bet that is only called by a better hand, it's a bad bet. How is this "fine"? It's exactly what we don't want to happen!!!

3: The only thing you are correct about here is that it is .50/1 and we are not up against Ivey or 'Hanson'


The annoying thing is, you've been told how bad this is before on the old site, yet you're still doing it? Unacceptable.

[Bubbleking]

I think checking the flop allows us to get 2 streets of value from worse Queens and potentially an underpair. If we bet the flop we rarely get 2/3 streets of value from an underpair and only sometimes get value from a worse queen.

On the other hand if we bet the flop we are getting raised more often than not with all Kings, flush draws and combos of 10J which is leaving us in a ghey position on later streets.

Just my opinion but I think checking the flop is better

[40something]

Oh jesus

3betting the flop is TERRIBLE. You've just given us a great reason NOT to 3bet the flop. Lets' look at this point by point.

1: I think you will find you are not auto-raised by half decent players on the flop cbet. Why would he 'auto-raise' you? You might be bluff-raised occasionally but your opponent will not be flinging chips at this flop every time you cbet.

2: You want to 3bet so that your opponent will only continue when he has a BETTER hand?? This is mental. Anytime you find yourself making a bet that is only called by a better hand, it's a bad bet. How is this "fine"? It's exactly what we don't want to happen!!!

3: The only thing you are correct about here is that it is .50/1 and we are not up against Ivey or 'Hanson'


The annoying thing is, you've been told how bad this is before on the old site, yet you're still doing it? Unacceptable.

Beat on me some more....

I am not suggesting that we 3bet just so we are called with better hands, even I don't hate money that much . I am exploring the concept of never 3 betting a flop for info (which is why I was selective in the piece I quoted).

I am delighted you have taken the time to respond and I fully see where you are coming from, but why do we never take into account the benefit of a 3bet FOR THE PURPOSE OF AVOIDING the exceptionally difficult turn and river decisions we are facing? We have a good hand but we are forced to play it OOP, we can easily go broke here if we are not careful.

Please tell me which is worse, investing a [relatively] small bet into a pot (ie the 3bet) which, in all likelyhood, will either win the pot or tell us we are beat OR agonising over a river shove having invested a good chunk of the 3bet we could have made by chicken calling the Turn?

It seems to me to be far too simplistic to take the blinkered view that we never ever raise for info, is there no argument that it could be cheaper in the long run in SOME cases?

I still defer to the more experienced and better players but like to understand why.

[Bubbleking]

^^^^^^^^^

what happens when your 3 bet gets called?

your oop and in a whole world of pain on the turn

[The C Kid]

[quote=30something;105076]

Never 3bet the flop here, raising for info bad etc./QUOTE]

Does everyone agree with this?

Any half decent player in position is going to auto-raise our flop cbet on this board. If we 3bet say €18 total villan will only ever call us/4 bet us with the K or pQQ and that's fine, otherwise he folds and we scoop. This is 0.50c n/l, we're not up against Ivey or Hanson.

Mmmmmmmbop.

[Hectorjelly]

I don't like checking the flop as you lose value against a lot of players who will peel paired boards once with underpairs as well as making a standard call with worse Qs and you risk getting bluffed off the best hand should your opponent take a stab at the flop and continue on later streets. Against some players I will go for value on flop and turn, others I might bet check bet, or bet check check with a view to c/c the river depending on what cards falls.

I generally prefer to bet flop + turn then check and decide on river depending on opponent and board texture. You get 2 streets of value from other queens and at least one from smaller pairs and draws.

I see what you are saying, I find my opponents are much more likely to make a stab at the pot If I check then give up (which is easy to play against), whereas if I bet they might bluff raise me, which is a lot harder to play against.

[tipp86]

I briefly looked over the thread. 50 nl is what i currently play so il give my outlook.

I will run through how i would normally play it.

Flop is fine you have to call these raises in spots like this folding is very weak.

I think if you call flop you call turn as any decent player who raises that flop will have to fire at the turn.

I however have to fold the river. I feel his likely holding will be a flush as the hand was played.

The river shove is rarely a bluff especially not with the context of the board.

I actually find HJ line to be a decent way of playing the hand if i was looking for an alternative play.

[TommyGunne]

Beat on me some more....

I am not suggesting that we 3bet just so we are called with better hands, even I don't hate money that much . I am exploring the concept of never 3 betting a flop for info (which is why I was selective in the piece I quoted).

I am delighted you have taken the time to respond and I fully see where you are coming from, but why do we never take into account the benefit of a 3bet FOR THE PURPOSE OF AVOIDING the exceptionally difficult turn and river decisions we are facing? We have a good hand but we are forced to play it OOP, we can easily go broke here if we are not careful.

Please tell me which is worse, investing a [relatively] small bet into a pot (ie the 3bet) which, in all likelyhood, will either win the pot or tell us we are beat OR agonising over a river shove having invested a good chunk of the 3bet we could have made by chicken calling the Turn?

It seems to me to be far too simplistic to take the blinkered view that we never ever raise for info, is there no argument that it could be cheaper in the long run in SOME cases?

I still defer to the more experienced and better players but like to understand why.

Raising for info is just silly. Its burning money. Playing a hand so that it plays easier rather than trying to max your EV is burning money. Turning a hand into a bluff that you don't need to is silly, especially when you have so many other hands to bluff with, and calling is fine.

Sure you will make the hand really easy to play, but thats not the aim of poker. You want to make money, not have a fun and easy game of Cluedo or whatever. You don't need or want to create scenarios where there are definites. Its a game of incomplete info, and just accept that, and try and max the money you can make in the face of that uncertainty, rather than maximising the certainty and then worrying about the money afterwards. Its the money that counts. Uncertainty isn't a bad thing, and the price you pay for the information you get by 3betting AQ there vastly, vastly outweighs any possible benefits. Raising for info is just bad. Use the info you have and try max your EV not your information.

[TommyGunne]

Flop is fine you have to call these raises in spots like this folding is very weak.

I think if you call flop you call turn as any decent player who raises that flop will have to fire at the turn.

What if he doesn't alway fire the turn if he was bluffing flop with a FD or whatever? The 9 also somewhat increases his hand strength in comparison to a real blank.

People say if you call this turn, you have to call blank rivers all the time, and that just betrays a lack of thinking about the situation.

[40something]

try and max the money you can make in the face of that uncertainty, rather than maximising the certainty and then worrying about the money afterwards.

This answers my question, thank you.

[AndyFatBastard]

I had a feeling this would generat some good discussion. Glad I posted it now. I'll hold off on my thoughts and the result for a little bit.

[Mellor]

It seems to me to be far too simplistic to take the blinkered view that we never ever raise for info, is there no argument that it could be cheaper in the long run in SOME cases?

Just to compound Tommy post.

We never bet or raise for info. Ever. There are only really two main reasons for betting/raising, in almost all situations.

1. We raise for value. We have a strong hand or a potentially strong hand and our oppenent is likely to call with worse hands or hands with less potential value.
2. We raise as a bluff. We don't have a strong hand, but our opponent is unlikely to have a strong hand, raising takes down the pot.

Sometimes we gain information as a result of these raises, but that is a nice side effect of betting/raising, not a main reason to bet.
Another side effect is capitalising on dead money in the pot, here too our main reason should be either value is a bluff.

[morehands]

Two quick questions:

1. What sort of range of hands is the opponent calling in position with here? First to a standard preflop raise then after reraising a standard looking out of position raise on the flop?

2. If this range has a lot of air, some draws and rarely a king, is it not profitable to put in another large raise on the flop?

[Moneymaker]

Two quick questions:

1. What sort of range of hands is the opponent calling in position with here? First to a standard preflop raise then after reraising a standard looking out of position raise on the flop?

2. If this range has a lot of air, some draws and rarely a king, is it not profitable to put in another large raise on the flop?

1 - Most pairs, JT, flush draws, worse queens. I would expect him to re-raise with Kings, draws and air.

2 - No, because his continuing range to a flop 3bet doesn't contain any hands we beat. Do you really think he's calling or shoving over the top of a 3bet on the flop with QTo or 88 or some random air hand????

[morehands]

1 - Most pairs, JT, flush draws, worse queens. I would expect him to re-raise with Kings, draws and air.

2 - No, because his continuing range to a flop 3bet doesn't contain any hands we beat. Do you really think he's calling or shoving over the top of a 3bet on the flop with QTo or 88 or some random air hand????

definitely not, and btw I'm learning with these questions, not trying to teach! anyway my question is an equity one, raisin g on the flop against his range will have x in equity against such a poor range due mostly to him folding

check calling will have y in equity mostly from him missing his draws or assuming a worse pair is good

what I wanted to know is how you are so certain that y equity is substantially bigger than x equity in this spot and why I should also be certain, I don't have a strong opinion on either unfortunately

[AndyFatBastard]

Here's how the hand played out in my head:

• I was going to check the flop behind, but then I thought about how many worse hands that would call a cbet, so I bet.

• When he raised, I thought about his range for doing this. Firstly it's a great board to check-raise versus a player who cbets too much (which is almost everyone), because you can make them fold a lot of better hands such as underpairs. So a huge amount of his range is draws and air. He does occasionally have a K, but the 3bet is small enough that I can bluff catch here and reasess the turn.

• When the turn came and he bet so small, my initial reaction was that this is either a house or he's still drawing. If he had a K or a straight he would have bet more to protect himself from flush draws. Then I thought about it a bit more and had to rule out KQ and QQ, because there's no way he'd raise the nuts on this flop. Which leaves us with 99 and K9, all of which are possible but unlikely. I felt he would bet this turn with every hand that he check-raised the river, so with the bet size, if I called the flop I should call the turn.

• When the river came with a diamond and he shoved, I had a serious WTF moment. I was really expecting a bet of about $20 from all of a house, a flush, a bare king or a straight. The only houses he can have are K9 or 99. A straight and a bare king would bet more on the turn and would either check behind or bet less on the river.

• Which leaves us with a flush. The majority of players at this level wouldn't shove a flush here either. It would have to be in the back of his mind that I could have KQ, K9 or 99 too. They would probably bet about $20-25. It suddenly occurred to me that I have a good negative against every hand he can have that beats me apart from the unlikely K9 and 99. The only hand that I was 100% sure he could play exactly like this was total air. And he was definitely shoving air on that river.

So I called and villian turned over 89o for a missed gutter. Did I make the right call for the wrong reasons, was my reasoning sound, or did I get lucky?

[paddyh1989]

Here's how the hand played out in my head:

• I was going to check the flop behind, but then I thought about how many worse hands that would call a cbet, so I bet.

• When he raised, I thought about his range for doing this. Firstly it's a great board to check-raise versus a player who cbets too much (which is almost everyone), because you can make them fold a lot of better hands such as underpairs. So a huge amount of his range is draws and air. He does occasionally have a K, but the 3bet is small enough that I can bluff catch here and reasess the turn.

• When the turn came and he bet so small, my initial reaction was that this is either a house or he's still drawing. If he had a K or a straight he would have bet more to protect himself from flush draws. Then I thought about it a bit more and had to rule out KQ and QQ, because there's no way he'd raise the nuts on this flop. Which leaves us with 99 and K9, all of which are possible but unlikely. I felt he would bet this turn with every hand that he check-raised the river, so with the bet size, if I called the flop I should call the turn.

• When the river came with a diamond and he shoved, I had a serious WTF moment. I was really expecting a bet of about $20 from all of a house, a flush, a bare king or a straight. The only houses he can have are K9 or 99. A straight and a bare king would bet more on the turn and would either check behind or bet less on the river.

• Which leaves us with a flush. The majority of players at this level wouldn't shove a flush here either. It would have to be in the back of his mind that I could have KQ, K9 or 99 too. They would probably bet about $20-25. It suddenly occurred to me that I have a good negative against every hand he can have that beats me apart from the unlikely K9 and 99. The only hand that I was 100% sure he could play exactly like this was total air. And he was definitely shoving air on that river.

So I called and villian turned over 89o for a missed gutter. Did I make the right call for the wrong reasons, was my reasoning sound, or did I get lucky?

I Like your reasoning. Its not a situation i would like to get into alot though. I feel like were guessing alot on river vs unknown. If we had reads he was sort of player that could pull this play would be much easier.But i do think his river shove is FH or air and diamond looks good for him to rep i guess.

[TheSnapper]

So I called and villian turned over 89o for a missed gutter. Did I make the right call for the wrong reasons, was my reasoning sound, or did I get lucky?

Against semi decent players their river betting tendancies can be a huge tell. It can be hugely profitable to note river bet sizes for relative hand strengths and more importantly how thin they value bet.

I like your call (result known obviously easy now) but moreso your reasoning. the river flush should scare most of the range he has repped. vwp sir.

Fwiw, I check the turn here sometimes, villain dependent, to weaken my range and villains calling range. But reasons for value betting flop are all valid and I probably bet more often than check.

[Starvin Marvin]

Here's how the hand played out in my head:

• I was going to check the flop behind, but then I thought about how many worse hands that would call a cbet, so I bet.

• When he raised, I thought about his range for doing this. Firstly it's a great board to check-raise versus a player who cbets too much (which is almost everyone), because you can make them fold a lot of better hands such as underpairs. So a huge amount of his range is draws and air. He does occasionally have a K, but the 3bet is small enough that I can bluff catch here and reasess the turn.

• When the turn came and he bet so small, my initial reaction was that this is either a house or he's still drawing. If he had a K or a straight he would have bet more to protect himself from flush draws. Then I thought about it a bit more and had to rule out KQ and QQ, because there's no way he'd raise the nuts on this flop. Which leaves us with 99 and K9, all of which are possible but unlikely. I felt he would bet this turn with every hand that he check-raised the river, so with the bet size, if I called the flop I should call the turn.

• When the river came with a diamond and he shoved, I had a serious WTF moment. I was really expecting a bet of about $20 from all of a house, a flush, a bare king or a straight. The only houses he can have are K9 or 99. A straight and a bare king would bet more on the turn and would either check behind or bet less on the river.

• Which leaves us with a flush. The majority of players at this level wouldn't shove a flush here either. It would have to be in the back of his mind that I could have KQ, K9 or 99 too. They would probably bet about $20-25. It suddenly occurred to me that I have a good negative against every hand he can have that beats me apart from the unlikely K9 and 99. The only hand that I was 100% sure he could play exactly like this was total air. And he was definitely shoving air on that river.

So I called and villian turned over 89o for a missed gutter. Did I make the right call for the wrong reasons, was my reasoning sound, or did I get lucky?

Were you in position or out of position in this hand??
You seem to have different verdicts in your analysis.

[Slice Of Life]

As played readless this is a pretty standard cbet/call flop, c/f turn. I kinda surprised at the people saying they ch this flop. Firstly your completely unbalanced which makes your hand face up as some decent showdown value type pair. Would you cbet this flop with 78ss? A3dd? 22? KK? If your answer is yes to all of these then you need to be betting AQ. As well as getting value we maintain the iniaitive and make the hand easier to play. You allow villain who may or may not be a decent hand reader(no reads) to play perfectly if we ch. Secondly, we raised utg with our perceived tight image, KKQ flop is exactly the flop you need to be firing at with 100% of your range and setting up multiple street barrells to get him to fold Ace hi's and pp's that make up a big portion of his range.

[tipp86]

To say villains at this level wont shove the nuts is way off i think

[TommyGunne]

As played readless this is a pretty standard cbet/call flop, c/f turn. I kinda surprised at the people saying they ch this flop. Firstly your completely unbalanced which makes your hand face up as some decent showdown value type pair. Would you cbet this flop with 78ss? A3dd? 22? KK? If your answer is yes to all of these then you need to be betting AQ. As well as getting value we maintain the iniaitive and make the hand easier to play. You allow villain who may or may not be a decent hand reader(no reads) to play perfectly if we ch. Secondly, we raised utg with our perceived tight image, KKQ flop is exactly the flop you need to be firing at with 100% of your range and setting up multiple street barrells to get him to fold Ace hi's and pp's that make up a big portion of his range.

Good post apart from you wanting to fire multiple barrels at this lots. Not a good board for 3 barrells anyway unless something weird happens.

[Bubbleking]

I like the villains line if he bets more on the turn setting up a river shove that doesnt look so suspicious

[ianmc38]

I would definitely check this flop some % of the time. Dont mind checking or betting.

[AndyFatBastard]

Just back from a week off, sorry to resurrect the thread.

Were you in position or out of position in this hand??
You seem to have different verdicts in your analysis.

Sorry, I rewrote that post several times and must have gotten confused somewhere along the way. The meaning of the post is preserved, I think.

I like the villains line if he bets more on the turn setting up a river shove that doesnt look so suspicious

Yeah if he'd bet more on the turn I was certainly folding the river. Very good point.

[PortOfTheYokes]

Does everyone agree with this?

Any half decent player in position is going to auto-raise our flop cbet on this board. If we 3bet say €18 total villan will only ever call us/4 bet us with the K or pQQ and that's fine, otherwise he folds and we scoop. This is 0.50c n/l, we're not up against Ivey or Hanson.

Dont agree with this at all. 3-betting is by far the worst possible option here, You're turning your hand into a complete bluff for no reason.