some general 6-max spots - help please

[ViperEyeIRL]

Hi! I am kind of new to 6-max, I only played about 10k hands and I come from MTT. I am working on identifying my leaks and fix them. According to HM one of my leaks is that I have a low fold to 3-bets, so I'd like your opinion on how to act in some annoying and frequent spots.

To make things easy for these example lets always assume that villan plays 20/15 with 6% 3-bet. Stacks are all 100bb deep.

HAND# 1:

1) Folded to me, I open to 3bb from CO with 88, Button 3-bets to 10bb, blinds fold.

Options:
a) Flat call the remaining 7bb hoping to hit a set. I often do that because I am too curious, but I guess it is -EV as the few times I hit the set I am oop and can't maximise profit?

b) Fold. If find 88 too strong of a hand to fold here, especially with players 3-betting light IP....do yo fold here?

c) 4-bet. The problem about 4-betting 88 here is that I don't know whether I am 4-betting for value or as a bluff .....assuming that Villan never flats here I am transforming 88 into 72o ....comments please?


2) If you decide to go for option A and flat call, how would you play a low rainbow flop like 2 5 7 ?

Options:
a) Donk out
b) check/call
c) check/shove


3) If you check/call Villains bet for 15bb and a blank (ie. a 2) comes on the turn. Villain shoves. What do you do?

Options:
a) Call
b) Fold


4) If you check/call Villains bet for 15bb and a blank (ie. a 2) comes on the turn. Villain check. What do you do?

Options:

a) Bet/shove to protect your hand.
b) Checking behind for pot control hoping that a high card doesn't hit the river and you get to a cheap showdown in case Villain has 99/TT/JJ


HAND# 2

5) Folded to me, I open to 3bb from CO with 88, Big Blind 3-bets to 11bb. This time you have position if you decide to flat.

Options:
a) Flat call.
b) Fold.
c) 4-bet.


6) You decide to flat call. Flop comes T 7 3 rainbow. BB leads out for 15bb.

Options:

a) Call.
b) Fold.
c) Raise.



7) You decide to call. Turn is a 2 (no flush on the board). BB second barrel big.

Options:
a) Call.
b) Fold.
c) Shove.

HAND# 3

8) Folded to me, I open to 3bb from UTG with AQo, Button 3-bets to 10bb. What do you do?

Options:
a) Call and play the hand oop.
b) Fold.
c) 4-bet to 23bb

9) You decide to 4-bet to 23bb, and button shoves. What do you do?

Options:
a) Call
b) Fold

I wouldn't generally 4-bet with AQ here, I'd prefer to do it with hands like AA or XX, but I am just curious on whether you would stack off with AQ here getting 5/3 on the call basically?

Ok I will probably have more questions later, but the above are usually the spots that I hate the post, especially when I get 3-bet and hold mid-pp.

[AndyFatBastard]

A 3betting thread. These are always good.

1: Fold pre. You are not getting the right odds to set mine. If this guy was 3betting 10% or more, I might take this opportunity to 4bet him light. Once I've done that I would probably have to get them in, but I would expect him to fold to the 4bet significantly enough to make this a good move.

2. Same as 1.

3. Call.


As far as I can tell, you want to have a really small 3bet calling range. For me right now that's TT, JJ and AQ. Every other hand is either a fold or a 4bet vs a standard TAG.

[tipp86]

Hand 1

I take option b and fold. I think you need a lot of history to call.

4 betting is an option but its an awkward hand to 4 bet with as a lot of guys will flat call 4 bets with 99 - AA and it can really cause you bother. Calling to hit set = major leak. When i started playing 6 max i was the same and was sure it was the thing to do call 3 bet hit set happy days.

2 - if i made it this far i am taking option b check/call.

3 - easy fold

4 - How will you have the option as its you to act first?


Hand 2

5 - Its a big 3 bet i just fold.

6 - i guess if i call pre i am going to flat this flop.

7 - i think here is where you have to fold.Again shoving is worst option.


Hand 3

8 - This hand gets me in bother a lot. I call the 3 bet if i raise in later position i will most likely 4 bet this hand.

9 - Nah you have to fold that is why i dont 4 bet. If villian is competent he cant 5 bet shove an utgs 4 bet with a hand you are racing with.

[ViperEyeIRL]

4 - How will you have the option as its you to act first?

Ops fixed

Thanks for the answers!!!

[ianmc38]

Far too general a question. The standard line with all 3 of these hands should be to fold.

However, with more knowledge of opponents and their 3betting tendencies when on the button and vs lp raises, the correct action may be to call or to fold or maybe even 4bet/call.

4bet/folding with any of these hands is out of the question and should pretty much never be done.

[ViperEyeIRL]

Thanks all for the replies....just one question. Assuming we are all playing 100bb deep, with standard opening 3x , if I decrease my standard opening to 2.5x (obviously with every hand, not only pocket pairs), then Villain 3-bet sizing will be smaller also. How much should be his max 3bet size to justify me flatting my pp for implied odds when I hit my set (100bb deep, Villain 20/15 with 6% 3-bet)

OOP, would you flat is he makes it:

a) 7bb?
b) 8bb?
c) 9bb?

IP, would you flat is he makes it:

a) 7bb?
b) 8bb?
c) 9bb?

Thank you.

[Emmet]

you can't really setmine profitably 100bbs deep. The rule of thumb is stack sizes 11/13 times the size of the 3bet makes it about right to call a 3bet with a PP.

A lot of other variables though, his aggression, his likelihood to stack off with an overpair, how wide he 3bets, meaning he has AJs+ in his hand, meaning he needs to "hit" to stack off.

Again, second time this week 3betting has been brought up, and again I'm pointing where others have sent me before, RedJoker's 3betting video on Leggopoker.

[Starvin Marvin]

Dont call any 3bets with small pairs unless its a min raise basically.

Against a lot of players the 2.5x thing wont work, i still 3bet to 10bbs in those spots.
I tried min raising the button for a while to see if they 3bet smaller which would allow me to peel more hands. It worked pretty well.

[TommyGunne]

I haven't read the thread, but fold all of them.

Hand 2 is probably the closest to a call, but I still don't. Villain would have to be a hell of a lot more aggro than a 20/15 with a 6% 3b, which is actually a little nitty. Their 3bet from each position may vary hugely as well. Like some guys 3bet LP raises constantly from the blinds, but rarely IP to get a 6% 3b, but some guys 3b their btns a hell of a lot, and 3b less oop to get the same. The difference is very important.

Also, 88 plays pretty terrible in a 3b pot 100bb deep, especially vs guys that haven't a high 3b %.

EDIT: Read thread, about your open size, if you keep getting 3b, just open less often, and if you like you can open a little smaller. I wouldn't be changing much if they were 20/15s with a 6% 3b though. If you get some guy constantly 3betting, you can just open smaller, open less often, and 4b more. That wouldn't really apply to guys that don't 3b that much though. The way you are phrasing your question makes it seem like you want to call 3bs with pairs. This is usually burning money. Instead of engineering a raise size that means you might be able to set mine them (talk about this in a bit), you could just keep your raise size bigger, not worry about guys that don't 3b you very often, and profit.

The problem with making your raise size smaller is that you will be 3b a hell of a lot more by guys with pos on you, and less with guys that are oop to you. W/ regards pocker pairs, you'll obv not be able to call the guys who have pos on you cos you'll be oop vs widish ranges where you can't play back much, and vs guys who you have pos on, yeah you can probably call if they aren't 3betting too much, but I still think there will be many many better hands to call with before them. This makes people play better against you, cos guys oop can clearly see that if you minopen your btn lots then you'll probably be calling lots of 3bs too (digiman would be a good person to talk to about that point, he'd be more used to these dynamics than most others.) I wouldn't really bother adjusting my open size unless I think I am being raped by someone with 3bs, or if i feel I can exploit by raising smaller/larger. Thats the crux of it, I feel.

[AndyFatBastard]

BTW, what's wrong with flatting a 3bet with AQ? Is it just because our UTG open looks strong that our opponent's 3betting range should be stronger?

[ViperEyeIRL]

Their 3bet from each position may vary hugely as well. Like some guys 3bet LP raises constantly from the blinds, but rarely IP to get a 6% 3b, but some guys 3b their btns a hell of a lot, and 3b less oop to get the same. The difference is very important.

Thanks for the reply! With regards to the point above, would you advise looking at positional stats in HUD?

[TommyGunne]

Thanks for the reply! With regards to the point above, would you advise looking at positional stats in HUD?

Yes but be very careful of sample size. A slightly more general stat is 3b vs steal, which needs a smaller total sample as is more general. But once you get a good sample on any reg, I would highly recommend checking out their 3b by position, and then, obv with a good sample, what kind of hands they 3b.

There should be a popup for positional 3b from normal 3b, and you can add 3b vs steal to your HUD.

[RBBlogger]

3bet video

There is a 3bet concept video on Bluefire poker by i think Senti (I will double check later) Its less than an hour long but explains three betting strategy very well. It will answer all your questions above and also incorporate some new ideas such as 3 bet bluffing to balance your 3bet range.

I dont play tournaments so i would think that the majority of 3bets are for value there, whereas in cash games, 75% of 3bet in positon are 'usually' bluffs but alot less so when 3 bet from out of position, 25-30%.

Of course these percenatges obviously change dependant on opponent. To look at extreme examples, a nit will be 3 betting for value more from all positions wheras a loosed maniacs 3betting range will be extremely wide and include lots more bluff, lower value hands.

Once you identify your opponents 3 betting tendancies and patterns, you then can formualte how best to exploit it, whether this means calling 3bet in position, 3bet bluffing, 4 bet bluffing or simply folding.

You really need a soild 3betting plan. All my tilt issues in the past would usually end up with me spewing in 3 bet situations. the last thing you want to do when you have lost emotional control is to forgot how to play 3bet pots optimally so definitely invest the time in learning this concept inside out.

(Now when i go on tilt i fcuk up in other areas )

[TheSnapper]

Far too general a question. The standard line with all 3 of these hands should be to fold.

However, with more knowledge of opponents and their 3betting tendencies when on the button and vs lp raises, the correct action may be to call or to fold or maybe even 4bet/call.

4bet/folding with any of these hands is out of the question and should pretty much never be done.

Trying hard to understand this Ian.

Versus liberal 3 bettors, where folding too often is weak and exploitable, 4 betting and flatting are our alternative options.

Assuming we 4 bet.....

It's hard to define if it's for value or as a bluff but when the alternative is to fold, is turning 88 into a bluff horrendous?

We 4bet 88 versus villains wide 3 bet range.....

He'll fold often, we take the 9 - 11 bb's and open up a multitude of gameflow opportunities to exploit by adjusting correctly.

He'll flat call less often, and we play postflop poker, hopefully ip.

He'll 5 bet rarely, and on the rare occasion we run into the top of that range, folding is the correct option.

[TommyGunne]

Trying hard to understand this Ian.

Versus liberal 3 bettors, where folding too often is weak and exploitable, 4 betting and flatting are our alternative options.

Assuming we 4 bet.....

It's hard to define if it's for value or as a bluff but when the alternative is to fold, is turning 88 into a bluff horrendous?

We 4bet 88 versus villains wide 3 bet range.....

He'll fold often, we take the 9 - 11 bb's and open up a multitude of gameflow opportunities to exploit by adjusting correctly.

He'll flat call less often, and we play postflop poker, hopefully ip.

He'll 5 bet rarely, and on the rare occasion we run into the top of that range, folding is the correct option.

How much equity do you need to call a 5b shove 100bb deep? How much equity has 88 vs QQ+, AK?

Not only that, it doesn't make sense to 4b bluff with hands like midpairs anyway.

[RedJoker]

Villain is pretty tight and likely isn't 3betting light too often so folding is probably fine for all hands, I doubt we're going to get exploited for it. Definitely want to be stealing a lot when he's left to act. Hand 2 seems like the closest decision.

[TheSnapper]

How much equity do you need to call a 5b shove 100bb deep? How much equity has 88 vs QQ+, AK?

Calling a 5bet or not is another point TG but does focusing solely on that one particular likely response to our 4bet necessarily define the 4 bet as a bluff firstly, and secondly, incorrect?

The 4 bet is a decision made facing a wide range, the top end of which is crushing 88 obviously.

To revisit though. We raise 88 from LP and face a 3bet from a liberal 3 bettor, is the suggestion in this thread that we rule out 4 betting because on the rare occasion we find the top of his range, we have to fold 88 and it is too strong to turn into a bluff? If so, I see some sense in this if 88 is in our calling range, but if the alternative is to fold. Can it be correct to suggest folding 88 and waiting for 72o to 4bet bluff?

Not only that, it doesn't make sense to 4b bluff with hands like midpairs anyway.

I agree totally, but in this scenario as with any we have opponent dependant ranges with which we......

4bet for value
Flat call
4bet bluff
Fold

What range are we suggesting 88 belongs to in this scenario?

[ViperEyeIRL]

Hi there,
I don't want to open a separate thread for this....I just wonder if you can give me some opinions on this preflop spot from yesterday, I just wonder if it is standard to always go broke here?

Both Villan and myself are playing 200bb deep, I am on the BB with AKo , Villan playing 22/17 with 7% 3-bet on a very small sample of hands (200) on the button
.
Villan opens 3x, i make it 10x, he makes it 25x, i make it 58x, he 6-bet shoves 200bb, I call. Is it standard to go broke here or could I have got away from this?

[tipp86]

Hi there,
I don't want to open a separate thread for this....I just wonder if you can give me some opinions on this preflop spot from yesterday, I just wonder if it is standard to always go broke here?

Both Villan and myself are playing 200bb deep, I am on the BB with AKo , Villan playing 22/17 with 7% 3-bet on a very small sample of hands (200) on the button
.
Villan opens 3x, i make it 10x, he makes it 25x, i make it 58x, he 6-bet shoves 200bb, I call. Is it standard to go broke here or could I have got away from this?

This is quiet an awkward one and i guess i have not came across the scenario to often. Its awkward due to him possibly thinking that you 3bet light here a lot where i get worried is when he shoves over your 5 bet. I actually think you are so rarely good here.

The question is can we fold once we 5 bet i dont think so. Im actually not great in this spot and may fold to some opponents. Im sure someone here can do the maths on the situation i certainly cant.

Imo its a call but i really dont like it.

[digiman]

Hi there,
I don't want to open a separate thread for this....I just wonder if you can give me some opinions on this preflop spot from yesterday, I just wonder if it is standard to always go broke here?

Both Villan and myself are playing 200bb deep, I am on the BB with AKo , Villan playing 22/17 with 7% 3-bet on a very small sample of hands (200) on the button
.
Villan opens 3x, i make it 10x, he makes it 25x, i make it 58x, he 6-bet shoves 200bb, I call. Is it standard to go broke here or could I have got away from this?

This really depends on the villan, without history I would either call his 4b or just not 3b pre. If I was 5betting AK here I would never be folding it.

[RoadSweeper]

Yea as Digiman said. It depends on the villain. His 3bet% is pretty irrelevant here btw. His 4 bet % is more important but still not really that applicable as its only 200 hands and players ranges change the deeper they are playing.

[TommyGunne]

Yeah, what Digiman said. I'd usually be very reluctant to felt AK 200bb deep, but there are obv places you have to. If you don't want to felt it, you have to plan a little ahead, and as Digiman said, either flat the 4b or not 3b.

[TheSnapper]

This is quiet an awkward one and i guess i have not came across the scenario to often. Its awkward due to him possibly thinking that you 3bet light here a lot where i get worried is when he shoves over your 5 bet. I actually think you are so rarely good here.

The question is can we fold once we 5 bet i dont think so. Im actually not great in this spot and may fold to some opponents. Im sure someone here can do the maths on the situation i certainly cant.

Imo its a call but i really dont like it.

You need ~33% equity to call profitably

Versus QQ+,AKs,AKo, you have 38% and can call.

Depends on what level you are playing at, villains tendancies and history but assuming he's competent, I doubt AK is in his 200bb 6 bet shove range.

Versus QQ+, you have 31% and should fold.

Fwiw, flat call his 4bet. This deep, is a 3bet compulsory?

[RedJoker]

This deep, is a 3bet compulsory?

3betting OOP deep is far from compulsary and gets worse the deeper you are. Add another 50-100 bb and you're getting to a stage where you may not want any OOP 3betting range.

[ViperEyeIRL]

thanks all for the feedbacks...I am taking notes

[Emmet]

3betting OOP deep is far from compulsary and gets worse the deeper you are. Add another 50-100 bb and you're getting to a stage where you may not want any OOP 3betting range.

can you explain that a little more for the more braindead among us? Should we simply wait for our hands to become "made"-er before we start committing chips the deeper we get?

I amn't very familiar with the concepts when playing deep at all to be honest

[RedJoker]

can you explain that a little more for the more braindead among us? Should we simply wait for our hands to become "made"-er before we start committing chips the deeper we get?

I amn't very familiar with the concepts when playing deep at all to be honest

You're going to be OOP for the rest of the hand and this disadvantage gets bigger the deeper you are, the last thing you want to be doing is inflating the pot preflop.

[colquhom]

You're going to be OOP for the rest of the hand and this disadvantage gets bigger the deeper you are, the last thing you want to be doing is inflating the pot preflop.

I have a question if you don't mind answering it.....

When you're trying to work out a solution for a hand, specifically say, what hands you need to call the river with so that you're not being exploited (taking into account hands you have to call flop/turn with and pre etc) do you find that you generally only need to call quite a tight range on the river?

I know this is very vague, but say if you're trying to work out a hand heads up, that begins with you calling a raise oop pre, do u find that even tho you're heads up, by the river you only need to call 3 barrels with quite a strong hand (stronger than you might expect just by estimating it).

i.e that many calls are in fact "hero" calls from an exploitative sense.

Sorry if thats too vague

[ianmc38]

Hate felting that AK.

[RedJoker]

Hey colquhom,

yeah that's pretty vague and it's going to depend heavily on board texture and, to a lesser extent, the original opening and defending ranges.

I did some quick estimates but my computer isn't working ATM so I'm posting from my phone and can't go into huge detail. On the turn it's reasonable to assume we're making villain indifferent to bluffing some 20% equity hand (different on dry board). Using pot sized bets i'm getting that we need to call about 57% of the time. On the river it's 0 equity so it's just 50% we need to call.

That gives about 28% of our flop calling range we need to call down with. I'd say about 25% equity is reasonable for the flop indifference hand. We could use a breakdown of maybe 20% raise, 30% call to make villain approximately indifferent. So that would give us about 7% of our preflop calling range as a call down 3 streets hand.

As I said these are all rough estimates, it's a very interesting problem, sorry I couldn't be more specific but I hope this helps.