Sunday Tourney hands

[HiCloy]

1. Sunday warmup Stars, early enough on. Both villains seems loose/bad. Anyone raise turn? river?

No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 100/200 Blinds (9 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO (t3935)
Button (t8436)
SB (t8458)
BB (t19546)
UTG (t13908)
UTG+1 (t11321)
MP1 (t10524)
MP2 (t14671)
Hero (MP3) (t9700)

Hero's M: 32.33

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 6, 7
UTG calls t200, UTG+1 calls t200, 2 folds, Hero calls t200, 2 folds, SB bets t700, 1 fold, UTG calls t600, UTG+1 calls t600, Hero calls t600

Flop: (t3400) J, 9, 7 (4 players)
SB bets t800, UTG calls t800, 1 fold, Hero calls t800

Turn: (t5800) K (3 players)
SB bets t1000, UTG calls t1000, Hero calls t1000

River: (t8800) 6 (3 players)
SB checks, UTG bets t1400, Hero....


---------------

2. Party monthly million. Bubble has burst and pretty flat payouts for a while. UTG+2 unknown, other two both taggy 16/12 types after 80 hands who have done nothing strange, thoughts on all streets please

No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 1000/2000 Blinds (10 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP1 (t143181)
UTG+1 (t67838)
Hero (UTG) (t55918)
MP2 (t17750)
BB (t30914)
MP3 (t71732)
SB (t75048)
Button (t51738)
CO (t11641)
UTG+2 (t79264)

Hero's M: 18.64

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, A
Hero bets t4400, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls t4400, 5 folds, SB calls t3400, BB calls t2400

Flop: (t17600) Q, J, K (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+2 checks

Turn: (t17600) 9 (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+2 bets t12775, 2 folds, Hero calls t12775

River: (t43150) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets t18765, Hero....

[gorrrr72]

Hand 1, I don't like any part of it tbh. I'd fold preflop and on the flop, probably call the turn. As played I think it's a call but expect to be beaten by sets and higher 2 pair a lot. It's pretty spewy imo.

Hand 2, I definitly bet the flop. As played call the turn but fold the river.

[Wesley Harms]

Hand 1, I don't like any part of it tbh. I'd fold preflop and on the flop, probably call the turn. As played I think it's a call but expect to be beaten by sets and higher 2 pair a lot. It's pretty spewy imo.

Hand 2, I definitly bet the flop. As played call the turn but fold the river.

I really dont like this. Call a full pot bet on the turn just to hit the flush?

[BuChan]

i'd raise or fold pre in hand 1 and fold flop as played.

hand 2 id make it a little more pre, not important i guess. you check an ugly flop hoping for a safe card then call when the worst card in the deck rolls off. i think you should fold there even though he's last to act.

[AndyFatBastard]

2. Open raise 3BBs when UTG, and holy shit, bet the fucking flop, bet it full pot and be happy to get the chips in there and then.

[max_power]

2. Open raise 3BBs when UTG, and holy shit, bet the fucking flop, bet it full pot and be happy to get the chips in there and then.

lol how often do you think you're going to be getting it in ahead on this flop?

[max_power]

As for hand 1 I think I play it the same, and call the river.

[8611]

Hand one fold pre

fold again to reraise pre

fold flop

fold turn

Call river and thank your lucky stars you're online so he can't punch you for turning up with 67 there

[8611]

Hand 2 as annoying as it is I think you have to bet the flop now. I personally fold turn. You have to fold river.

[max_power]

Don't understand why people want to fold pre in hand 1. I might raise pre but don't mind limping along; once it's raised you can never fold anywhere imo.

[8611]

Don't understand why people want to fold pre in hand

mainly because of this

once it's raised you can never fold anywhere

[max_power]

lol you can't fold because of his betsizing + the fact that we're almost definitely ahead. If the flop came AT5ccx or something and he 3/4 pots obviously we fold but when we flop a pair with bd draws and are given > 6/1 I like a call. OTT we're again given a great price for our draw due to the villain being terrible.

[8611]

we're almost definitely ahead

FTW!

[8611]

If the flop came AT5ccx or something and he 3/4 pots obviously we fold

you fcking rock!

[max_power]

FTW!

I obviously mean on the river, and yes I know I do ty.

[max_power]

I may not have been to clear on that post. I'm not folding the flop because we have a pair and bd draws and we're getting 6/1 or so. I'm not folding the turn because we're getting a great price again and I'm not folding the river because we're almost definitely ahead now. What part of that do you dispute?

[Wombatman]

Hand 1: Fold pre. Call as played.

Hand 2: Bet the flop. Fold turn.

[max_power]

I think a flop check in hand 2 is infinitely better but I'm open to being convinced otherwise. Why are people betting the flop? B/f? b/c?

[Line Us]

Hand 1 looks fine, a bit loose pre. call river.

Hand 2 looks good too as long as you fold river now.

[AndyFatBastard]

lol how often do you think you're going to be getting it in ahead on this flop?

Not sure how to answer this. A lot?

[max_power]

Really? What kind of range do you think people are gonna ship over you there from a raise utg and a cbet into 3 people in a decent buyin tourney?

[Angry-Ball]

hand 1
i have no problem with your hand selection but i think you have to raise pre i would make it 900-1000 pre

as played i fold the flop,fold the turn and now that we have reached the river i call now but would not be against getting it allin here either.

hand 2
iam definetaly betting the flop, when the spade hits on the turn iam slowing down here and folding to a decent bet
as played i fold the turn

[max_power]

Can anyone who is advocating betting the flop give me a) A good reason B) Tell me are you b/f b/c or what? and C) Tell me what range you expect to get it in against?

[Angry-Ball]

Can anyone who is advocating betting the flop give me a) A good reason B) Tell me are you b/f b/c or what? and C) Tell me what range you expect to get it in against?

tbh iam b/c this flop i expect to see alot of fd's and sd's also AK,AQ,AJ and maybe A10 if we are unlucky

[AndyFatBastard]

Really? What kind of range do you think people are gonna ship over you there from a raise utg and a cbet into 3 people in a decent buyin tourney?

A very, very wide range that includes a bunch of hands that beat us but also a whole host of draws and pair + draw hands that we have dominated. Even when we are dominated we have a gutshot and a backdoor nut flush draw to get us out of it, never mind the two kings and three aces still in the deck. We're 28 BBs deep and if we'd raised more pre and cbet we'd already have most of that in the middle already. To top it all off, it's a flat payout and the bubble's burst - it's time to aim for the final table or bust. I have no problems getting them in here whatsoever.

[Fuzzy Logic]

tbh iam b/c this flop i expect to see alot of fd's and sd's

When you open UTG and get called in 2 spots by TAGGy players? Whose range do you think that flop hits more, ours or theirs? Add in the fact its 4 handed so peoples bluffing ranges drop dramatically? For reals?

[max_power]

I'm sure one of the more mathsy guys would be better at doing up % ranges and stuff but I don't see somone shoving say a 67s there v an utg raise and with so many players, most of the fd's which will shove on us will be combo draws (imo) which we're not in great shape against, adding in the times they have sets, 2pair etc makes me not really a big fan of this line.

[Angry-Ball]

When you open UTG and get called in 2 spots by TAGGy players? Whose range do you think that flop hits more, ours or theirs? Add in the fact its 4 handed so peoples bluffing ranges drop dramatically? For reals?

I'm sure one of the more mathsy guys would be better at doing up % ranges and stuff but I don't see somone shoving say a 67s there v an utg raise and with so many players, most of the fd's which will shove on us will be combo draws (imo) which we're not in great shape against, adding in the times they have sets, 2pair etc makes me not really a big fan of this line.

iam still happy to ship the loots here on the flop and guys with draws are the most likely people that are going to shove over your cbet. sure there is 2 pairs and sets there and flopped straights but 2pairs and sets are allways lurking when you get it allin on the flop wit top top

[TommyGunne]

Hand 1 looks fine, a bit loose pre. call river.

Hand 2 looks good too as long as you fold river now.

Yup. Was gonna post something like this.

Hand 1: I think your first limp is a bit loose alright from MP, rest of the hand is fine and just call river.

Hand 2: I like the check back on the flop, and fold river as well.

[BuChan]

why are we calling the flop in hand one against two loose bad players? your drawing at bad odds or looking to pick up a draw that you can't semi-bluff with. so lucky one of them didn't bet 2500 on turn and then (or) make a real bet on the river.

calling the turn in hand 2 is the same, no reason to believe you'll get called if any of your outs come in. no reason to assume he gives up on a bluff since you never have a flush and rarely have a 10.

[mdoug]

hand 1: I don't mind this play at all, if I don't come in with the original raise myself I play pretty much exactly as played and have to call river. You're beating kq

hand 2: as played I fold the turn tbh.

Don't know how I would play this myself tbh, I would either bet ~7k on flop or check and see that turn, but i don't get too involved on turn if its a dangerous card.

[Moneymaker]

1. I don't see too much wrong here. Call now of course.

2. Seems fine to me. I don't like the idea of stacking off multi-way on that kind of board.

[RedJoker]

1) Pre seems fine. Flop is fine given bet size. I prefer a call to a raise on the turn since we have showdown value. Call river, I rarely expect to be behind but it's difficult to get called by worse.

2) Looks good, fold river.

[8611]

I may not have been to clear on that post. I'm not folding the flop because we have a pair and bd draws and we're getting 6/1 or so. I'm not folding the turn because we're getting a great price again and I'm not folding the river because we're almost definitely ahead now. What part of that do you dispute?

sorry I went to bed!

i agree with the call on the river. i disagree with the play on every other street. basically i don't think you can profitably play MTTs calling bets for close to 10% of your stack with bottom pair crap kicker and runner runner draws.

[8611]

Can anyone who is advocating betting the flop give me a) A good reason B) Tell me are you b/f b/c or what? and C) Tell me what range you expect to get it in against?

a) you're most likely ahead, and the board is uber drawy and (god forbid) your later decisions will at least be informed by your opponent's action in response to your bet

b) I suppose this depends on whom is playing back and in what amount. I would certainly be willing to b/c even repush

c) a feck load of draws, one pairs and draws, some hands that beat us

I can see the arguments for checking also mind, I'm just concerned that you're effectively giving up the pot, are allowing others to catch up and are giving them the opportunity to bluff you off the pot, and at the very least are going to put you to a harder decision later on.

Now that may not be technically the right line but its certainly the easiest

[Mellor]

tbh iam b/c this flop i expect to see alot of fd's and sd's also AK,AQ,AJ and maybe A10 if we are unlucky

I wouldn't consider getting it in against the nuts lucky



Hand 1: I rather raise pre, but limping is ok, a little lag, obv call the raise.
Calling Flop, turn, river was fine getting 6, 8 and 7 to 1 respectively


Hand 2: Raise more pre, flop and turn are fine, fold river

[HiCloy]

Thanks for all the replies

In 1, I'd never consider raising here against anyone competent, but these guys were not good. Called anyways and SB called as well, SB had QQ, UTG had A8

2. I folded river

[BuChan]

1) Pre seems fine. Flop is fine given bet size. I prefer a call to a raise on the turn since we have showdown value. Call river, I rarely expect to be behind but it's difficult to get called by worse.

2) Looks good, fold river.

in what sense is 67 on J97K board showdown value?! two loose villains, you can't beat 107. surely the reason not to raise is the lack of fold equity?
i think some of the advice is in this thread is only applicable to cash games or early tourny ~100bb stacks.

[RedJoker]

in what sense is 67 on J97K board showdown value?! two loose villains, you can't beat 107. surely the reason not to raise is the lack of fold equity?
i think some of the advice is in this thread is only applicable to cash games or early tourny ~100bb stacks.

I don't know how much fold equity we have against a player who's using a ridiculously small bet size and another player who's only calling it. You seem to think it's not much, I could easily argue that their play indicates a lot of weakness. You could counter that they may not necessarily fold, particularly given the amount of marginal pair + gutshot type hands they could have on this board. I could counter that they might fold those to a river barrel. All seem like reasonable positions to me.

However, I do know I don't want to be in a stiuation where I raise the turn, blank the river and then have to decide whether to follow through with a river bluff with a pair. I do know that there's a lot less combos of better hands I can get to fold then if I had a hand like 5d4d, and that I won't end up in as many tricky river situations either. I need a lot less fold equity to justify raising 5d4d then I do to justify raising 7d6d.

We could spend countless pages discussing the exact amount of fold equity we have but all it would be based on is our own personal experiences in these types of situations which may not even remotely resemble the actual truth of the matter. Obviously lack of fold equity would be the main underlying reason for not wanting to raise, it pretty much goes without saying but is anybody really learning much from hearing that?

How about finding out that the amount of showdown value you have can drastically affect the way you should play draws? I'm pretty sure a lot of people will learn something (or at least have something to think about) from that.

[BuChan]

How about finding out that the amount of showdown value you have can drastically affect the way you should play draws? I'm pretty sure a lot of people will learn something (or at least have something to think about) from that.

granted that's a lesser understood/discussed topic. the question whether or not to raise was asked in op and unaddressed in most replies, so it doesn't go without saying. i really don't think this hand has showdown value but w/e, like you said that is an opinion.
lol, unfortunately for you here's some more opinion: dynamics change as tournaments progress. antes come in after this level, it's more important to have a ~40bb stack as this initially happens than it is to get involved in questionable ev spots. ugh i think im making a tournament life post.