200NL: Fading and Drawing

[TommyGunne]

Villain is 19/13 with a 65% cbet over 200 hands. Don't really have any reads apart from him being solid.

I've been 28/23 and pretty aggro. We haven't played a big hand despite me having position.

No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($197)
SB ($570.02)
Hero (BB) ($253)
UTG ($206.25)
MP ($490.36)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5, 4
3 folds, SB bets $5, Hero calls $4

Flop: ($12) 8, 6, 2 (2 players)
SB bets $9, Hero calls $9

Turn: ($30) Q (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $22, SB raises $56,

Hero does what? Anyone raise flop no?

I think this is pretty standard, but just looking for arguments in the other direction to what I think is right.

[The Istanbul]

Villain is 19/13 with a 65% cbet over 200 hands. Don't really have any reads apart from him being solid.

I've been 28/23 and pretty aggro. We haven't played a big hand despite me having position.

No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($197)
SB ($570.02)
Hero (BB) ($253)
UTG ($206.25)
MP ($490.36)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5, 4
3 folds, SB bets $5, Hero calls $4

Flop: ($12) 8, 6, 2 (2 players)
SB bets $9, Hero calls $9

Turn: ($30) Q (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $22, SB raises $56,

Hero does what? Anyone raise flop no?

I think this is pretty standard, but just looking for arguments in the other direction to what I think is right.

SB checkraising your turnbet is strong and IMO represents a made hand (set, overpair) but you are drawing to the winner and with a likely 15 cleanish outs have a 30% chance of hitting: as, at this stage, you are required to put in an extra €34 to win €106 right now and the pot is offering better odds:- so call is the correct decision notwithstanding the fact that you will most likely get a value bet at end from him if you hit. I give up if I miss the river though.

Dont think I raise the flop as I have a nicely disguised hand against a solid player who I might stack if I hit-why price myself out of my own draw: maybe if I had overcards in a drawing hand!

[RoadSweeper]

I raise the flop a bit but call a bit too. Now I call. I think we prob get paid alot when he bink.

[Wesley Harms]

SB checkraising your turnbet is strong and IMO represents a made hand (set, overpair) but you are drawing to the winner and with a likely 15 cleanish outs have a 30% chance of hitting: as, at this stage, you are required to put in an extra €34 to win €106 right now and the pot is offering better odds:- so call is the correct decision notwithstanding the fact that you will most likely get a value bet at end from him if you hit. I give up if I miss the river though.

Dont think I raise the flop as I have a nicely disguised hand against a solid player who I might stack if I hit-why price myself out of my own draw: maybe if I had overcards in a drawing hand!

I dont like like any of this. What value is he going to get from two black aces for example if a 3h rolls off on the turn. You not stacking anyone here if you hit imo. His flush draw is small so he may not be drawing to a winner, considering the check raise happens when the flush card hits.

Think i would have raised the flop, might just give up now although calling isnt the worst i suppose

[RedJoker]

I'd very rarely raise the flop in this situation. Call the turn, I think betting was fine.

[Bozzer]

I dont like like any of this. What value is he going to get from two black aces for example if a 3h rolls off on the turn. You not stacking anyone here if you hit imo. His flush draw is small so he may not be drawing to a winner, considering the check raise happens when the flush card hits.

Think i would have raised the flop, might just give up now although calling isnt the worst i suppose

Folding turn is out of the question. We're getting enough immediate odds that we still make money even if sb c/f's every time we improve. I wouldn't be too worried about sb having two hearts as it's such an awful line to take with a flush draw (you don't want to put yourself in spots where you're calling your stack off with a draw).

I would call the flop pretty much everytime here. Much more likely to raise w/o the bdfd.

Turn is a call imo. I think a random solid tag is way more likely to just barrel that turn if he wanted to bluff.

[BobSloane]

Should we bluff at a diamond river here if checked to.? And if a 2h/8h river and he jams?
Is this not a good flop to raise as we have disguised double gutter and can rep diamonds if they hit? Or is this a better line with a tighter image than TG has here and if its not bvb? Or is raising flop just bad

[TommyGunne]

Yeah wasn't even considering folding turn. Was flop raise/turn shove and line on some rivers we're checked to I was wondering about

[Mellor]

I call flop, bet turn and call now.
Bink the black 3 and get paid off by AQ imo

[Bozzer]

Should we bluff at a diamond river here if checked to.? And if a 2h/8h river and he jams?
Is this not a good flop to raise as we have disguised double gutter and can rep diamonds if they hit? Or is this a better line with a tighter image than TG has here and if its not bvb? Or is raising flop just bad

I wouldn’t say raising this flop is terrible. Raising a hand like Th9h would be considerably worse as that hand has a lot more showdown value with it’s pair outs but not enough equity to make shoving over a flop 3bet appealing.
The fact that we have a disguised draw should make us more inclined to just call as we have better implied odds. It’s not much use having a hidden draw when the flop is 3bet (which will happen fairly often when sb continues).
As I said earlier, I would raise without the bdfd as there are now significantly less turn cards that we can continue on.

Against someone good I would bluff a river diamond. A good player will realise our betting range is polarized to flush or bluff so he knows a set is just a bluffcatcher (although some have blockers to potential flushes). I would need a read before deciding to just give up with the absolute worst hand in my range. You can probably shove every bluff you get to the river with and stay balanced although I haven’t counted up all the combos.
Against this particular chap bluffing could be bad as there’s so many players who will just think, well he’s raising a FD on the flop and a bunch of draws missed so I gotta call! It could well be exploitively correct to just check vs your avg 200nl reg…I dunno. I’d prob just shove.

As far as what to do vs a shove on a 8h/2h river, I would fold on the 8h as Q8s/86s are in his range and I think he might shell up there with AA. 2h is trickier as he has fewer boats in his range and will prob feel more comfortable betting an overpair (2 pairs were counterfeited and we never have trips). I think I’d have to call.

[tipp86]

Have not read replys as it changes my thoughts.

I will 3bet pre some of the time with this hand say maybe $13-14 but most of the time i will flat as you did.

Flop without a doubt i raise to about $25.

As played on the turn im not sure how i play it pretty sure i flat call his raise id consider shoving if im playing a 100bb stack

[TommyGunne]

I call and fold to river 3/4 pot bet. Pretty weird betsizing line for him to take when he easily could have had a shovable stack on the river.