Box cards?

[Donkathon]

Was reading in a mag the other day where they put out a question to a few touernament directors, think it went like this

2 players to the river, burn card is dealt revealing an over turned card for the river in the deck (they called it a box card) all 6 td's ruled that the card is dead and the river would be the next un reveiled card is this correct? thought it would make more sence that the burn card would stand the over turned card put right the remainding deck reshuffled and the river dealt. If the guy was going to the river and he only had one out the it turned out to be that revealed box card and is now drawing totally dead is this fair?

[sligoboi]

Different places have different rules but if I was playing a proper event and they shuffled the deck at any time after the cards were dealt I'd be very worried.

The integrity of the deck is paramount and as such you can't mess with the way the cards were meant to fall after the original shuffle.

With regards to the fella drawing to one out the only difference is that he knows where in the deck his one out was.

[curleywurley]

Was reading in a mag the other day where they put out a question to a few touernament directors, think it went like this

2 players to the river, burn card is dealt revealing an over turned card for the river in the deck (they called it a box card) all 6 td's ruled that the card is dead and the river would be the next un reveiled card is this correct? thought it would make more sence that the burn card would stand the over turned card put right the remainding deck reshuffled and the river dealt. If the guy was going to the river and he only had one out the it turned out to be that revealed box card and is now drawing totally dead is this fair?

In all poker games, when a card is discovered upside down or 'boxed', then that card is regarded as a piece of tissue paper and removed from the deck. That's the tradition of poker.
With regards fairness, as long as the rule is followed consistently, then the decision is fair imho.

[Mellor]

Different places have different rules but if I was playing a proper event and they shuffled the deck at any time after the cards were dealt I'd be very worried.

Reshuffling is fine and supposed to happen in a few situations, say turn is dealt pre-maturely, correct rule is to burn and deal river face down, reshuffle with pre-mature turn card back in the deck and deal new turn

[DAMO72]

Why in this situation is there any need to change the card at all .
If im reading your post correct .
The action has gone to the river and you peel off the burn card and the next card is face up .

Is this not the river card anyway?

is it not gonna be turned over anyway?

[Voodoo Paul]

In all poker games, when a card is discovered upside down or 'boxed', then that card is regarded as a piece of tissue paper and removed from the deck. That's the tradition of poker.
With regards fairness, as long as the rule is followed consistently, then the decision is fair imho.

This is correct.

An upturned or 'boxed' card discovered in a deck is treated as a scrap piece of paper and has no part in the deck.

[TheTD]

Why in this situation is there any need to change the card at all .
If im reading your post correct .
The action has gone to the river and you peel off the burn card and the next card is face up .

Is this not the river card anyway?

is it not gonna be turned over anyway?

Simply because a player may have seen the card boxed in the deck during the shuffle and gain an unfair advantage over other players.

This is a very old rule and one I discussed with Thomas at the EPT grand final,
We have made an amendment to it for the Irish rules that if a boxed card comes out during the deal it is treated as an exposed card.
As no action has taken place no one is at a disadvantage.
If a boxed card comes out during the flop, turn or river it is treated as a piece of paper..
Thomas likes our take on it and I will be forwarding it to be considered at the annual TDA meeting.

J

J.

[TheTD]

Different places have different rules but if I was playing a proper event and they shuffled the deck at any time after the cards were dealt I'd be very worried.

The integrity of the deck is paramount and as such you can't mess with the way the cards were meant to fall after the original shuffle.

With regards to the fella drawing to one out the only difference is that he knows where in the deck his one out was.

This is also an old way of thinking the integrity of the deck is no where near as important as players rights to a fair game.

J.

[carfax]

We have made an amendment to it for the Irish rules that if a boxed card comes out during the deal it is treated as an exposed card.
As no action has taken place no one is at a disadvantage.
If a boxed card comes out during the flop, turn or river it is treated as a piece of paper..

Glad you brought this up Donkathon as the committee spent ages going over this (and it was way over my head )....

Just to clarify that the above MO is going to be outlined in the Irish TD's manual.
Not really sure when we are going to get this together but most of the contentious issues will probably be covered here in the rules section so even if TD's take on board the points discussed here that would be great for now.

Stephen.