Can't fold now right?

[RedJoker]

I have a note on villain from a previous session which says that he's tricky postflop, he plays 22/17 with a 6% 3bet. Villain's only sat down recently and hasn't gotten out of line, folded a couple of BTNs as well. His range for calling preflop may be wider due to the fish in the BB. I'm not sure how I'm viewed; might be seen as a lag, a tag or a fish depending on how I was playing the previous session.

PokerStars, $1/$2, $0.4 ante NL Hold'em Cash Game, 3 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

Hero (BTN): $544.45
SB: $520.70
BB: $499.90

Pre-Flop: K K dealt to Hero (BTN)
Hero raises to $6, SB calls $5, BB folds

Flop: ($15.20) 5 7 A (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($15.20) 9 (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($15.20) 5 (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero bets $10, SB raises to $45, Hero ?

I think this is an interesting spot because we can both have 5s in our ranges, but besides those combos my range is pretty capped. Given the read I think he may be capable of slowplaying like this but also capable of bluffing here and there's a lot of potential bluff combos in his range. I'm not sure on villain's bet sizing, on the one hand my range looks pretty weak and like a thin value bet or maybe just a stab with air on the river given action, which makes a full pot raise for value a poor choice. On the other hand, maybe he's overcompensating for not inflating the pot on previous streets with a slowplay or is trying to make it look bluffy. If the 5 hadn't paired this would be pretty close to the top of my range and I considered betting the turn.

Do you play any street differently, what do you do now and why?

[ianmc38]

Against someone who's decent/tricky I'd check back the river. Little value and sucks when he puts us into situations like this. As played I probably call.

[AndyFatBastard]

I don't understand why you didn't bet the turn. Can you elaborate on your reasoning?

[RedJoker]

I don't understand why you didn't bet the turn. Can you elaborate on your reasoning?

It's for the same reason I didn't bet the flop and the same reason Ian would check back the river, although it's a bigger problem on the turn then it is on the river. It's about weighing up the value you'll gain from worse hands against the times you're betting into a better hand or just get bluffed off your hand.

[smoothcall]

pretty easy fold I woulda thought. The size of his bet is bit big to be a bluff I think, reraising to 30 wold be more like a bluff imo

[colquhom]

I'd expect him to make it that size with both bluffs and value bets.

I dunno if these reasons will be contradictory but with bluffs he'll prob think that if he 3x's it its way to easy for you to click call with whatever thinnish value hand you have and when he is value raising he'll prob just think that fuck it I've only got one street here I'll just make it big.

I think he can have more than 5x too. I think for whatever reason he might think you'd check back the flop with Ax and vb the turn ( i dunno if you would or if thats good but people do it sometimes so its not too unreasonable for him to think that). I think if he misses that turn check raise with a big hand he'll go for a river one anyway (rightly or wrongly) for the same reason I think he raises that big (that fuck it I'm just gonna make it big coz I missed bets everywhere).

He can obviously have bluffs but I'd go ahead and fold anyway. I'd prob have bet the river too.

[padraig]

fold, can't see any reason for him to bluff here. if he wanted to bluff, he had an opportunity on the turn. can't see why he would pass that up and then, on the river, attempt something much riskier, raising $45 to win $25.

[Opr]

I'd call, his value range is pretty small, your hand is face up and he is decent/tricky.

Opr

[BuChan]

I'd call, his value range is pretty small, your hand is face up and he is decent/tricky.

Opr

aye, bet sizing be damned, i agree with this.

[TheSnapper]

I'd call, his value range is pretty small, your hand is face up and he is decent/tricky.

Opr

^ This

Your hand looks so unlike calling value, more inclined to fold against a weaker player.

[JackBurton]

I'd bet the turn, as he would probably call with hands like 56 67 89 66 88 qj spades etc. Obv he calls with any ace too and if hes tricky post flop, like u state, its conceivable that he checks an ace on the flop and turn. But i still like a bet on the turn as there are so many hands he could have that u are getting value from and even if he has the ace he probably checks the river. I dont see him check raising me here with any of these type hands If he raises me i fold, he could have 68 or a two pair type hand like 97 57 a7 a9 a5 suited and mayyybe 55 77 99. Small chance i suppose he could raise with a huge flush straight draw combo type hand in which case he gets me to fold but more likely im crushed if he raises me here i think. If he just flats my bet well then the river will determine the action at that stage

In relation to ur spot on the river, i'd fold. Hes not raising with any one pair hands, raising with a single ace would be extremely thin and i cant c it. He raises with any 5 or hands like 68 and very possibly A7 A9 all of which theres a good chance he'd check on the river considering that u have played like u havent much and fair chance youve nothing consequently hoping u bluff at it on the river. So he either has u crushed or he has air, but lets consider he has air and thought the only way to win was a bluff wouldn't he lead the river, cause he cant be 100% sure that if he checks you will bet it enabling him to check raise bluff. His bet size doesnt really come into the equation for me as soon as its more than a min raise (as i probably call a min raise for the same reason as what killed the cat) So for my two pence worth i think ur crushed

[jimbling]

Hmm, this is a tricky one all right.

You're hand is pretty face up.... so I think it's important to know how well does the player know you? Just re-read the op and you dont know... so I guess that hampers it a bit.
But with a note that villain is tricky postflop I think I call this.


On another note, I CB this like 100%.

[Bozzer]

On another note, I CB this like 100%.

Why?

I call river btw. I don't think there's a huge swing in EV either way but we get to see his hand if we call...

[jimbling]

Why?

I call river btw. I don't think there's a huge swing in EV either way but we get to see his hand if we call...

Because checking is pretty much showing him our hand. If it wasn't such a wet board I might check back...but only because I might do that with an AK or AQ too. I would never check back an AK or AQ on this board.

[Bozzer]

Because checking is pretty much showing him our hand. If it wasn't such a wet board I might check back...but only because I might do that with an AK or AQ too. I would never check back an AK or AQ on this board.

Are you cbetting this flop 100%?

If I ever find myself in a spot where I think my hand looks face up then I will look for ways to tweak my ranges so that's not the case. I've no problem betting AK/AQ 100% on the flop, but it's certainly fine to check behind with some weaker Aces. You should also check back some air (which forces him into calling turn/river bets some % of the time with pure bluffcatchers).

I would also recommend checking behind KK-88,7x,66,5x most of the time (depending on opponent). 7sXs is another hand I would nearly always check back so we can threaten to have a flush if it hits.

[jimbling]

Are you cbetting this flop 100%?

If I ever find myself in a spot where I think my hand looks face up then I will look for ways to tweak my ranges so that's not the case. I've no problem betting AK/AQ 100% on the flop, but it's certainly fine to check behind with some weaker Aces. You should also check back some air (which forces him into calling turn/river bets some % of the time with pure bluffcatchers).

I would also recommend checking behind KK-88,7x,66,5x most of the time (depending on opponent). 7sXs is another hand I would nearly always check back so we can threaten to have a flush if it hits.

Well, this flop and this villain..... yes. If villain is more of a fish or calls CBs light, then I'd adjust and maybe not CB this type of flop as much.

But it's A high flop with a str draw and fl draw on board and you're the pfr. I CB about 12/13 here almost always.
Maybe this is bad, but it makes perfect sense to me....


Just reading your post bozzer, out of curiosity, what's your CB%? Seems like you check back a lot.

[TommyGunne]

I think river is really close, but I guess I call. He reps pretty thin, and you have a medium strength one pair hand almost always, and you're face up almost always. That combined with sizing makes me want to call, but I don't see much wrong with folding either. As you say, there are a hell of a lot of hands to bluff with, and not so many big hands.

Well, this flop and this villain..... yes. If villain is more of a fish or calls CBs light, then I'd adjust and maybe not CB this type of flop as much.

But it's A high flop with a str draw and fl draw on board and you're the pfr. I CB about 12/13 here almost always.
Maybe this is bad, but it makes perfect sense to me....

Firstly, even if some fish is calling 90% of cbets, this board is the one I'd fire on as a cbet bluff (well maybe without the fd). If you have KK and they're never folding to cbets, then fire here obv.

Secondly, 12/13 is too much here. I think you only need to bet about 10 on this board. Your range has a lot more strong hands in it than theirs, and they just won't be able to play back very much on this texture, cos they rep very little.

Thirdly, against competent people, I'd check back this hand on the flop here almost always. There just isn't much value to be had. It just doesn't make sense to me. You don't even have an equity edge over villains calling range (well maybe you do, but not much), and you can't fold any better hands, so cbetting doesn't seem great to me.

[TheSnapper]

I think river is really close, but I guess I call. He reps pretty thin, and you have a medium strength one pair hand almost always, and you're face up almost always. That combined with sizing makes me want to call, but I don't see much wrong with folding either. As you say, there are a hell of a lot of hands to bluff with, and not so many big hands.

I don't think its close at all and expect to be good more often than not. We are at the top end of our repped/perceived range.

Firstly, even if some fish is calling 90% of cbets, this board is the one I'd fire on as a cbet bluff (well maybe without the fd). If you have KK and they're never folding to cbets, then fire here obv.

These lite c/bet calling fish tend to be believers on A & K hi flops so cbet 100% is +ev

Secondly, 12/13 is too much here. I think you only need to bet about 10 on this board. Your range has a lot more strong hands in it than theirs, and they just won't be able to play back very much on this texture, cos they rep very little.

Thirdly, against competent people, I'd check back this hand on the flop here almost always. There just isn't much value to be had. It just doesn't make sense to me. You don't even have an equity edge over villains calling range (well maybe you do, but not much), and you can't fold any better hands, so cbetting doesn't seem great to me.

QFT.

[jimbling]

Firstly, even if some fish is calling 90% of cbets, this board is the one I'd fire on as a cbet bluff (well maybe without the fd). If you have KK and they're never folding to cbets, then fire here obv.

hmmmm
You're turning KK into a bluff against a fish that calls 90% of CBs? This makes no sense.

Secondly, 12/13 is too much here. I think you only need to bet about 10 on this board. Your range has a lot more strong hands in it than theirs, and they just won't be able to play back very much on this texture, cos they rep very little.

I like the big bet on an A high draw heavy board. Screams protection of A.

Thirdly, against competent people, I'd check back this hand on the flop here almost always. There just isn't much value to be had. It just doesn't make sense to me. You don't even have an equity edge over villains calling range (well maybe you do, but not much), and you can't fold any better hands, so cbetting doesn't seem great to me.

See, this is where I'm getting a bit lost. You turn KK into a bluff against a guy who's likely to call (the fish above) but not against a competent player who's more likely to fold to your CB, but take the pot from you if you check it back?

[TheSnapper]

hmmmm
You're turning KK into a bluff against a fish that calls 90% of CBs? This makes no sense.

They call lighter so their calling range contains lots of hands we beat, though it is quite thin value its not a bluff, there is no chance a better hand folds.

See, this is where I'm getting a bit lost. You turn KK into a bluff against a guy who's likely to call (the fish above)

Again, they are capable of calling with hands we beat.

but not against a competent player who's more likely to fold to your CB, but take the pot from you if you check it back?

Would you want him to play perfect and fold, and if he tries to take the pot from us, is'nt this good for us.

[TommyGunne]

I wasn't saying about turning KK into a bluff here. KK would be a value bet there against that type of player, but I was just making the point that I cbet this flop a very large % of the time against anyone. Wasn't talking about the KK, but if we had another time. I guess it doesn't make sense if you read it the other way, but I thought it was legible when I wrote it .

It was in response to this:

If villain is more of a fish or calls CBs light, then I'd adjust and maybe not CB this type of flop as much.

Just making the point that I'd cbet that flop lots even against someone who called cbets lots. Nothing to do with KK.

[digiman]

I think the river is a very easy fold. As much as I love calling I don't think I would ever call here. I would have bet the turn though. There are lots of pair and gutter hands he can have that you will get value from.

[TheSnapper]

I think the river is a very easy fold. As much as I love calling I don't think I would ever call here. I would have bet the turn though. There are lots of pair and gutter hands he can have that you will get value from.

What hands can the villain get to the river with as played that have CR value versus a very weak repped range. Possibly 99 for a failed turn CR and rivered house. But would he bet this big with that hand.

[digiman]

What hands can the villain get to the river with as played that have CR value versus a very weak repped range. Possibly 99 for a failed turn CR and rivered house. But would he bet this big with that hand.

99, 65s, 68s, Ax. Not sure why he would want to turn a hand worse than KK into a bluff tbh. I would have to be told this guy was really really good and thinking a hell of a lot to consider calling here or else have a lot of history, know what level hes thinking on. Like does he know how I think and how I would percieve him etc..

[jimbling]

I wasn't saying about turning KK into a bluff here. KK would be a value bet there against that type of player, but I was just making the point that I cbet this flop a very large % of the time against anyone. Wasn't talking about the KK, but if we had another time. I guess it doesn't make sense if you read it the other way, but I thought it was legible when I wrote it .
.

Sorry ya, I missed the last bit in that sentence.

[jimbling]

They call lighter so their calling range contains lots of hands we beat, though it is quite thin value its not a bluff, there is no chance a better hand folds.

This is interesting, my thought process is a little different... and probably wrong.

Yes, the calling range is very wide... but A rag is a massive part of their range. We don't really have a strong hand so why grow the pot?
I'd prefer to wait until I have AK here and bet the fck out of a fish. I'd try and keep the pot small with KK on an A high board.

Would you want him to play perfect and fold, and if he tries to take the pot from us, is'nt this good for us.

Yes, it will sometimes cause villain to make a mistake and try to take the pot from us with a weaker hand then that's obviously good. The problem is that we dont know if that's what he's doing. We are giving up the initiative to a tricky post flop player when we have a weak holding.

And he wouldn't be playing perfect. If he knew we had KK in our hand he actually wouldnt fold.... he would raise and represent the A.

[TheSnapper]

This is interesting, my thought process is a little different... and probably wrong.

Yes, the calling range is very wide... but A rag is a massive part of their range. We don't really have a strong hand so why grow the pot?
I'd prefer to wait until I have AK here and bet the fck out of a fish. I'd try and keep the pot small with KK on an A high board.

Its not a spot to "bet the fck out of it" but there is value to eek out. It is +ev to bet flop, check turn, and you'll often squeeze a smallish bet call on the river. Yes sometimes you'll valuetown yourself too.

Yes, it will sometimes cause villain to make a mistake and try to take the pot from us with a weaker hand then that's obviously good. The problem is that we dont know if that's what he's doing. We are giving up the initiative to a tricky post flop player when we have a weak holding.

Knowing what he's doing is never certain and again in this spot, he will sometimes have us beat, but allowing him to take the iniative though it puts us in a somewhat tricky spot, offers us a better chance to get chips in good.

And he wouldn't be playing perfect. If he knew we had KK in our hand he actually wouldnt fold.... he would raise and represent the A.

Are you suggesting that rather than encourage the villain to represent the Ace, we should lead and represent the Ace ourselves.

[jimbling]

Its not a spot to "bet the fck out of it" but there is value to eek out. It is +ev to bet flop, check turn, and you'll often squeeze a smallish bet call on the river. Yes sometimes you'll valuetown yourself too.

Okay, I'm probably missing value in these sort of spots so. It's pretty thin value though right??

Knowing what he's doing is never certain and again in this spot, he will sometimes have us beat, but allowing him to take the iniative though it puts us in a somewhat tricky spot, offers us a better chance to get chips in good.

Ya, I follow you all right. Maybe it's just that I'm not as good at reading the tricky situations. As in, I find that I would make more mistakes by following your method. I'll have a think on it.

Are you suggesting that rather than encourage the villain to represent the Ace, we should lead and represent the Ace ourselves.

I suppose I am the one that's turning KK into a bluff now. I just feel the weakness it shows to not cb on a flop like this is asking for the pot to be taken away from you.

Perhaps my problem actually stems from the fact that I would 100% CB this flop with AK/Q/J as well.
A tricky villain will know that and so my hand is completely face up. If I sometimes checked back AK then villain would make more mistakes?

[padraig]

What was the result then?

[RedJoker]

Perhaps my problem actually stems from the fact that I would 100% CB this flop with AK/Q/J as well.
A tricky villain will know that and so my hand is completely face up. If I sometimes checked back AK then villain would make more mistakes?

Jesus, no. You can check the flop and call down two streets with A4, sometimes KK as well. You could call the turn and fold the river with 88. There's absolutely no reason for you to be mangling your ranges by checking back AK, AQ or AJ.

You only have a limited range of hands you can happily cbet and get all-in with on this board. Because this range is limited you can only cbet a limited amount as a bluff, any more and you open yourself up to being exploited by frequent check raisers.

So, if you can only bet a limited amount as a bluff then it should make sense that we don't want to bluff with hands which have a decent chance of winning at showdown like KK, A4, 88, etc. You can check those hands back and balance your call down range on future streets like I mentioned above. Your value range is balanced by the draws and air you're cbetting on the flop.

Just because you sometimes end up in a tricky situation with KK when villain barrels the turn and river, doesn't mean you should mess up your ranges on earlier streets. Just get better at dealing with the tricky situations, don't fold enough that you'll get run over and don't call too much that you're only ever shown a better hand. Beyond that there's not much else to it.

What was the result then?

Not that it's hugely relevant for the discussion but I thought for a while and called, he had 88.

99, 65s, 68s, Ax. Not sure why he would want to turn a hand worse than KK into a bluff tbh. I would have to be told this guy was really really good and thinking a hell of a lot to consider calling here or else have a lot of history, know what level hes thinking on. Like does he know how I think and how I would percieve him etc..

I don't think you even need to be 'really really good' anymore to pull this move. You can get one of Slowhabit's books for a couple hundred now and you'll learn to c/r bluff rivers when your opponent's range is capped. I'd imagine there's a reasonable proportion of 200nl players who've picked up an expensive ebook at this stage.

Even though you usually rep a really narrow range you'll be surprised how often it gets through.