How was this played, live tourney?

[bantee]

€250 game in local club, 58 entries, 48 left when this hand cropped up.

Folded to me in MP with Jh10h, blinds 150/300 with an ante of 25. I pop it to 850 (I'm not too worried about my bet size as I tend to vary these a bit and it doesn't depend on hand strength).
SB and BB (villian) call.
SB is generally a LAG poor player who doesn't put too much thought into calling any raises pre flop. BB (villian) is a tightish decent player who doesn't get out of line too often. He previously called me on BB with AJ and called a c-bet on flop and we checked it down to river and I didn't have an ace in this hand either.

I would say I'm viewed as fairly loose aggressive since I joined the table but I increased my stack from 17k to 20k without any showdown.
SB has about 22k and BB (villian)has the exact same as me (about 20k).

Average now is only around 23k.

Flop comes Ah 10s 7h. SB and BB check so I bet 1600 (pot was about 2700 so is this too small?). SB then calls the 1600 and BB thinks a few seconds and makes it 3600.

Ok so I call the extra 2k (is this bad?, should it have been raise or fold?), and SB then folds.

Turn: pot is about 11.5k now. Jd comes on turn.

Villian and I both have 14k left.

Villian bets 4k.

Hero?

[bantee]

Maybe title should read: How to proceed with hand?

Any feedback appreciated as hand has wrecked my head!

[DAMO72]

Shove the fcuk out of it now ,
Hate the rest of it .

[shano_88]

pretty wierd spot, I presume this was the game in Fitzpatricks last weekend. Who was the villian?

[MegaSin]

Can we check the flop and see where we are on the turn?


Or would that be a horrible move?

As said above though I'd shove now but as I keep on saying I am a poor-slightly less then poor player.

[Caf]

Looks like a good enough flop to 4bet imo. It's either a check or a 4bet imo. Flop Cbet is only getting called by hands that beat you, so can check to control pot size as you are deep.

Turn is dodgy but his bet sizing is weak by the looks of it. Has Villain 3bet flop and led turn with similar bet sizing before?

[bantee]

pretty wierd spot, I presume this was the game in Fitzpatricks last weekend. Who was the villian?

Ya, the very one. I can't think of his name, northern lad living in Shannon that only seems to show up for the bigger games. He is friends with Kathleen and the 2 of them travelled in together I think.
Played with him before. and as I said above, he doesn't get out of line too often.

[bantee]

Looks like a good enough flop to 4bet imo. It's either a check or a 4bet imo. Flop Cbet is only getting called by hands that beat you, so can check to control pot size as you are deep.

Turn is dodgy but his bet sizing is weak by the looks of it. Has Villain 3bet flop and led turn with similar bet sizing before?

Ya I was thinking the flop is either a 4bet or fold, folding seemed too weak after flopping a pair and flush draw though.

I have been moved to table recently so no further history on villian, but I only saw him flat call OOP with AJ on an ace high board and check behind on turn and river against me so I'm thinking he doesn't donate chips too easily!

[bantee]

Can we check the flop and see where we are on the turn?


Or would that be a horrible move?

As said above though I'd shove now but as I keep on saying I am a poor-slightly less then poor player.

Check behind for pot control but do I really want to in position on that board?

[shano_88]

Ya i know the guy. Villian is never bluffing here on the flop. His range is like a10, 1010, 77, and 89hh and kqhh type hands. I would never expect to see a naked ace in this spot unless its a slowplayed ak which i guess is possible. I probably just 4bet get it in on the flop. Your doing pretty good against his range i think.
As played, its wierd because 89 and kq both got there both i can never imagine folding this.

[MegaSin]

I'm not sure

That why I was asking is it a good or a bad move.

[shano_88]

I'm not sure

That why I was asking is it a good or a bad move.

Id rarely check the flop and definetly not in this spot. Sb is probably calling with 7x and 10x and plenty of random draws.

[BobSloane]

If i bet the flop I'm 3b jamming. If you dont want to play a big pot, dont bet the flop. One advantage of not betting the flop is no-one will put you on a flush draw later in the hand. My default would be to bet/3b shove the flop though.
i dont see much point in jamming the turn. You have 2 pair and a fd. He's giving you great odds to just call and evaluate river ip

[Caf]

Ya I was thinking the flop is either a 4bet or fold, folding seemed too weak after flopping a pair and flush draw though.

I have been moved to table recently so no further history on villian, but I only saw him flat call OOP with AJ on an ace high board and check behind on turn and river against me so I'm thinking he doesn't donate chips too easily!

one pair can come into his range here if he's a decent player, he'll remember the hand with his AJ too and can easily use this to his advantage. .....it's so hard for him to have 2 pair here as we hold blockers. It's either a set or 1 pair(ak/aq) imo, with the latter being fav. H prob thinks 3bet on flop will TiD there.

his turn bet seems v strange to me so I prob push to win it there or, if necessary, get lucky on riv. With v little reads or HH it's prob just a call on turn but I will be reading this thread to see what others think.

[bantee]

If i bet the flop I'm 3b jamming. If you dont want to play a big pot, dont bet the flop. One advantage of not betting the flop is no-one will put you on a flush draw later in the hand. My default would be to bet/3b shove the flop though.
i dont see much point in jamming the turn. You have 2 pair and a fd. He's giving you great odds to just call and evaluate river ip

Ya I'm thinking that this is the best option alright. Thing is I do want to play a big pot. This is the type of hand to get you up to 42k in chips early in the tourney, or else bust lol

[Mellor]

Looks like a good enough flop to 4bet imo........

......Has Villain 3bet flop and led turn with similar bet sizing before?

It wouldn't be a 4 bet here as,
Villian didn't we 3 bet.

Pointless to use to to analysis villians bet if you don't even use them right.
I'd be more interested in the CR tbh

If i bet the flop I'm 3b jamming. If you dont want to play a big pot, dont bet the flop. One advantage of not betting the flop is no-one will put you on a flush draw later in the hand. My default would be to bet/3b shove the flop though.

Yeah I pretty much fold or 3 bet shove.
His bet sizing has be worries though. Assuming he is competent. Along with the fact that the Ah is on the flop. I either jam or flat flop depending on player.

[bantee]

Yeah I pretty much fold or 3 bet shove.
His bet sizing has be worries though. Assuming he is competent. Along with the fact that the Ah is on the flop. I either jam or flat flop depending on player.

Ya he is competent from any time I've played with him. That's why I didn't know whether to jam the flop or flat call, so I took the call option.

The way I looked at it was that A10 or 77 were the 2 hands I was worried about. He never has 10-10 or A-A here as he would have 3 bet pre.
He wouldn't have raised my flop bet either with KQ, unless maybe it was KhQh.

From responses so far, its looking like I took the wrong option on the flop.

I'll wait on any more feedback and I'll post results later.

[blaaaaaaah]

€250 game in local club, 58 entries, 48 left when this hand cropped up.

Folded to me in MP with Jh10h, blinds 150/300 with an ante of 25. I pop it to 850 (I'm not too worried about my bet size as I tend to vary these a bit and it doesn't depend on hand strength).
SB and BB (villian) call.
SB is generally a LAG poor player who doesn't put too much thought into calling any raises pre flop. BB (villian) is a tightish decent player who doesn't get out of line too often. He previously called me on BB with AJ and called a c-bet on flop and we checked it down to river and I didn't have an ace in this hand either.

I would say I'm viewed as fairly loose aggressive since I joined the table but I increased my stack from 17k to 20k without any showdown.
SB has about 22k and BB (villian)has the exact same as me (about 20k).

Average now is only around 23k.

Flop comes Ah 10s 7h. SB and BB check so I bet 1600 (pot was about 2700 so is this too small?). SB then calls the 1600 and BB thinks a few seconds and makes it 3600.

Ok so I call the extra 2k (is this bad?, should it have been raise or fold?), and SB then folds.

Turn: pot is about 11.5k now. Jd comes on turn.

Villian and I both have 14k left.

Villian bets 4k.

Hero?

I personally would check the flop behind as it disguises the strenght of your hand and im sure would get the 'lag' player to have stab on some streets and if missed by you im sure your 10 rates to be the best hand.
Also in saying that it is fine to bet the flop but only if you are prepared to 3 barrel every street even if you have missed your draw because if you say bb is smart tight player he will defo no you no that which should get hime of aq,aj or any ace that is not 2 pair come the river.. there is no way tight players risk there stacks on 1 pair come the river they only risk it on the flop or preflop with aces of course!
Just for future so you don't get yourself in trick situation like your in now wit 2pair on turn.
Since you have 2 pair on turn with flush draw I believe you should call the turn as you have the right odds too but also you have to be carefull tight villan could have hands like a10,aj or bottom set but also mite have ak but doubtfull so you see there is not much you beat right now especially as his 4k bet looks like he is nearly certain he has best hand but has slight doubt and doesn't want to bet 6 or 7k incase he is beat where you would auto ship all in. I reccomend you flat call turn and if he bets the river give up if you miss your flush obviously because it's still a strong line he is taking and also as he very rarely wil have one pair in this spot...

[bantee]

Thanks for the responses, some good food for thought.

On hindsight, I probably should've got the money in on the flop but villian had A10 so would have definitely called anyway.

On the turn, I did shove my 14k in over his 4k bet and he only had 10k behind.
He got up off his seat, did a bit of huffing and puffing and said something like "I think I'm behind but have to call", which of course I would be doing in his spot too, if not a little apprehensively.

8c on the river and I'm out, ship the 42k pot to the villian, dunno if he put those chips to good use either, know he didn't win the game anyway

[BuChan]

wtf check back flop. neither of them have or will fold jj. as played shoving flop or turn are both really bad imo, nitterson prob checks a7 on turn and calls everything else.

[Caf]

Flop comes Ah 10s 7h. SB and BB check so I bet 1600 (pot was about 2700 so is this too small?). SB then calls the 1600 and BB thinks a few seconds and makes it 3600.

It wouldn't be a 4 bet here as,
Villian didn't we 3 bet.

Pointless to use to to analysis villians bet if you don't even use them right.

Hi Mellor,

If the flop goes check,check and we raise, this AFAIK is an open raise. The BB makes it 3600 and here we have a 3bet AFAIK. I'm new to the lingo of poker tbh but I don't get what you are trying to say. The quote of yours that I have bolded above doesn't make any sense to me. Can you explain please?

Since you have only quoted some of what I said I would like to explain the sentence in which I said 4bet. I recon we can either check the flop or bet/villain 3bets and then we 4bet. Clearly there is no 4bet without the villains 3bet.

I'd be more interested in the CR tbh

If I'm correct in thinking CR means to check raise, then how can we do this with position?
Pointless to analyse villains bet if you don't even use them right.

I'm probably way off the mark btw but am here to learn as much as possible so I don't mind making mistakes and will look forward to hearing from you

[BuChan]

check, check, bet (1 bet), call, raise (2 bets), ship (3 bets)

[Caf]

check, check, bet (1 bet), call, raise (2 bets), ship (3 bets)

Heard and understood. no need to reply Mellor. I see where I was wrong now. TY BuChan.

[bantee]

wtf check back flop. neither of them have or will fold jj. as played shoving flop or turn are both really bad imo, nitterson prob checks a7 on turn and calls everything else.

Don't necessarily think that shoving flop is really bad. Probably doing it on the turn was poor alright. I got myself into this spot and hit the flop pretty big. I think any nit here is folding AJ and maybe AQ if I shove.
In fairness, how was I to put him on A10? But that was one hand I was worried about along with 77.

Thanks anyway.

[Caf]

check, check, bet (1 bet), call, raise (2 bets), ship (3 bets)

Heard and understood. no need to reply Mellor. I see where I was wrong now. TY BuChan.

Is there such thing as a 2bet then BuChan? Does it go bet, 2bet, 3bet? I've never heard of a 2bet before so just curious. (maybe there still is a need to reply Mellor)


Edit: apologies if this is off the line of the thread but I'm fairly confused now...

[BuChan]

Don't necessarily think that shoving flop is really bad. Probably doing it on the turn was poor alright. I got myself into this spot and hit the flop pretty big. I think any nit here is folding AJ and maybe AQ if I shove.
In fairness, how was I to put him on A10? But that was one hand I was worried about along with 77.

Thanks anyway.

i think a cr is a bluff/strong hand way more often A he plans on folding imo, the raise size makes the bluff less likely.

@ Caf the 3bet term is to avoid saying he re-re-re-reraised.

[Aya14]

Villain tends to lose the run of himself wit a pocket pair. I'm all for getting it in on flop.

[BobSloane]

@ Caf the 3bet term is to avoid saying he re-re-re-reraised.

a re-raise would be a 3b. ^^ That thing would be a 6bet

[BuChan]

lol pedantic much? it was hyperbole ffs.

[BobSloane]

lol pedantic much? it was hyperbole ffs.

yes

[gorrrr72]

I personally would check the flop behind as it disguises the strenght of your hand and im sure would get the 'lag' player to have stab on some streets and if missed by you im sure your 10 rates to be the best hand.
Also in saying that it is fine to bet the flop but only if you are prepared to 3 barrel every street even if you have missed your draw because if you say bb is smart tight player he will defo no you no that which should get hime of aq,aj or any ace that is not 2 pair come the river.. there is no way tight players risk there stacks on 1 pair come the river they only risk it on the flop or preflop with aces of course!
Just for future so you don't get yourself in trick situation like your in now wit 2pair on turn.
Since you have 2 pair on turn with flush draw I believe you should call the turn as you have the right odds too but also you have to be carefull tight villan could have hands like a10,aj or bottom set but also mite have ak but doubtfull so you see there is not much you beat right now especially as his 4k bet looks like he is nearly certain he has best hand but has slight doubt and doesn't want to bet 6 or 7k incase he is beat where you would auto ship all in. I reccomend you flat call turn and if he bets the river give up if you miss your flush obviously because it's still a strong line he is taking and also as he very rarely wil have one pair in this spot...

I really like this post, makes a change to just saying "shove the flop"(even though that's what I would probably do)

[bantee]

I really like this post, makes a change to just saying "shove the flop"(even though that's what I would probably do)

Ya, I'd like to 2nd this. A refreshing well-thought out reply which is exactly what I was looking for.