Early stages MTT

[tipp86]

This is a hand ive just played in the PP IO satt.

I raise Kc Qc to 120 in ep

Blinds are 15-30

Folded to BB who calls his stack is circa 4k and i cover.

Flop is Qd 10h 3h

He checks i bet 130 he raises to 645. Can we fold here?

Turn 6c

I call and he leads the turn for 1545? How do we approach this?

This tournament is a 320 buy in if that matters it is obv going to have a mix of good players and some inexperienced sattelite players along with poor live players looking at one shot at irish open.

[AdMMM]

Suppose it would depend a lot on what the turn card was...

[tipp86]

Suppose it would depend a lot on what the turn card was...

jesus im unreal for leaving out some important details thanks adam

[8611]

Suppose it would depend a lot on what the turn card was...

lol

you'll should also post your position and any reads on the way he has been playing and how he might perceive you have been playing

but generally speaking, fold. he has you beat an awful lot here and looks like he's just afraid of the flush getting there

[tipp86]

lol

you'll should also post your position and any reads on the way he has been playing and how he might perceive you have been playing

but generally speaking, fold. he has you beat an awful lot here and looks like he's just afraid of the flush getting there

Sorry still playing that/watching match hence lack of detail !

No real reads as the tables were playing quiet tight.

[pgodkin]

fold flop, fold turn! What position are u in when u raise??? BB could flat there with a ton of hands that on the flop would have u beat AQ, Q10 sets big flush Draws KJh etc. raise like 100 pre i thinkk your raise is too big! Any knowledge of who the villian is???

[tipp86]

fold flop, fold turn! What position are u in when u raise??? BB could flat there with a ton of hands that on the flop would have u beat AQ, Q10 sets big flush Draws KJh etc. raise like 100 pre i thinkk your raise is too big! Any knowledge of who the villian is???

UTG +1

Lol im getting in trouble in one thread for raising to small in hands ! I would agree 100 is probably ok in that spot but i would not think it makes a massive difference.

Ya i guess the biggest question is the flop call in fairness i dont think we can ever call turn !

No knowledge on villian !

[AdMMM]

Having just completely blown up in a tourney on Full Tilt, I can safely say I'd ship the the turn and pray the big hold or break things if he shows a set.

[Caf]

UTG +1

Lol im getting in trouble in one thread for raising to small in hands ! I would agree 100 is probably ok in that spot but i would not think it makes a massive difference.

Ya i guess the biggest question is the flop call in fairness i dont think we can ever call turn !

No knowledge on villian !

LOL.
I didnt want to post earlier and say to open 3bb in case you thought I was picking on you

Fold,Fold

[tiago]

ha yeah again tipp I would raise to 90 pre. I'd bet slightly more on the flop aswell, round 2/3's of the pot rather than half.

I'd fold the flop as his raise is so big its too expensive to call and see what happens on the turn. If he raised a bit less I might call and evaluate.

I'd fold pre aswell presuming it was 9 or 10 handed.

[Laois Hammer]

whoa whoa whoa, you 4x with no limpers and 3x with two limpers

[Mellor]

Fold flop, fols turn.

and I probably fold PF too. Depending on your def of EP. UTG & UTG+1 I fold PF, if later I make it 100

[Closed_Account]

and I probably fold PF too.

W.T.F.

Ah yeah the sweet KcQc in the muck you go. Mellor you lunatic.
Hand itself would depend hugely on the opponent.

[tipp86]

whoa whoa whoa, you 4x with no limpers and 3x with two limpers

Cant win can i Just remember im playing over 150bbs ! This will vary my game play an incredible amount !

[SiKcALL]

Fold flop, fols turn.

and I probably fold PF too. Depending on your def of EP. UTG & UTG+1 I fold PF, if later I make it 100

aggree with mellor especialy such early doors , and as the hand went im folding the turn and not realy sure im calling such a crazy cr on the flop with out solid reads .... all these horrible spots can be avoided by folding kq pf ep imo

[Line Us]

I'd make it 3x pre, but rest of the hand is fine, just fold turn when he fires again. Way too nitty to fold the flop but his range and frequency for betting the blank turn make it a easy fold now.

[Laois Hammer]

people who are open folding KQs preflop this deepstacked are doing something wrong

[rounders123]

This is a hand ive just played in the PP IO satt.

I raise Kc Qc to 120 in ep

Blinds are 15-30

Folded to BB who calls his stack is circa 4k and i cover.

Flop is Qd 10h 3h

He checks i bet 130 he raises to 645. Can we fold here?

Turn 6c

I call and he leads the turn for 1545? How do we approach this?

This tournament is a 320 buy in if that matters it is obv going to have a mix of good players and some inexperienced sattelite players along with poor live players looking at one shot at irish open.

Get it all in and expect to be ahead of a FD or a middle pair. Non ace non heart turn is great.
Most of these lads qualify through the $5-$20 feeders and will get hyper with draws and pairs so expect to be ahead more times than not.

[tipp86]

Get it all in and expect to be ahead of a FD or a middle pair. Non ace non heart turn is great.
Most of these lads qualify through the $5-$20 feeders and will get hyper with draws and pairs so expect to be ahead more times than not.

Ya but they also flat AQ and will go to war with it on that flop. I also would find that certain poor players play big hands like sets, AQ and 2 pair v aggresive.

[Tek]

+1 on the smaller open. 3x is fine

Fold flop.

As you called the flop and turn is a blank i think folding is pretty bad tbh

[DrJFF]

+1 on the smaller open. 3x is fine

Fold flop.

As you called the flop and turn is a blank i think folding is pretty bad tbh

what how is folding the turn bad?

also making it 4x here pre is fine and its only a marginal difference and its not going to be a mistake and saying make it 75 or 100 is just silly, as it is on later streets the real decisions come,

we are not short stacked or shallow stacks and shud not be worried by are open size it would be different if your opening for 6x or something

[Tek]

My bad. Misread the stack sizes in the op and thought he was much shallower.

Fold flop, fold turn.

[scouser in dub]

I think opening is obviously fine but I do think that opening smaller is better. The primary reason being the fact we can't pot control out of position, what we can do however is try to determine the pot size with the size of our open which obviously cascades through the streets.

The flop decision seems close. This idea that we can call flop and fold blank turns expecting villains to slow down on blanks when we are ahead just seems flawed, it means they get two chances to improve when ahead if they do slow down, they get there on the turn some and if they do barrel draws we fold the best hand which is worse on the turn than it is on the flop given that our equity is significantly better on a blank turn than it is against a combo draw on the flop and the pot is bigger.

[DrJFF]

I think opening is obviously fine but I do think that opening smaller is better. The primary reason being the fact we can't pot control out of position, what we can do however is try to determine the pot size with the size of our open which obviously cascades through the streets.

pre flop is not the problem here as i already stated, how are you to know you will need to go into pot control preflop? we are deepstacked with a strong hand that flops well, against weaker opponents(more than likely) therefore board textures wil determine if i want to pot control post flop,

my point is open size preflop its so marginal its not worth mentioning imo and too many are creaming themselves over it.

[scouser in dub]

like I'm not going to get hung up on the open but to suggest it's irrelevant is to miss the point a bit I think. We don't know we are going to have to pot control what we do know is that we are going to be playing the hand for top pair value more often than we are going to be happy to get it all in. That being the case the slightly smaller open allows us to have some impact on the size of the pot post while OOP which in my opinion goes a small way to mitigate the fact that we can't pot control. It also makes our c-bets cheaper when we miss and the deeper the stacks are the greater the RIO given that we flop a pair more than anything else.

[tipp86]

Lads i consider myself better at tournaments than cash but i am playing 20-50 nl and a considerable amount of it.

I will admit its 6 max but still im pretty sure playing FR that i would be opening this hand for 4bbs everytime.

This hand is deeper than most cash games and the fact that a hell of a lot of tournament players will be at there weakest playing this deep. I think its a great time/hand to gain chips in a tournament.

Im with DrJff all the way here when he says people are getting way over concerned with the pf raise.

If this was a cash hand this deep there wouldnt be a mention of it.

I feel that the main point to be discussed in this hand is flop call or fold !

[scouser in dub]

well tbf I did say I wasn't getting hung up on the open at all and DrJff quoted the smaller of the two paragraphs which is fair enough given it was the point he wanted to respond to.

The other paragraph suggests why I think the flop is a fold like it's obvious the villain in the hand has just mashed the pot button but if the intention is to fold if he pots again then fold as he is potting too often for you to call flop and fold turn. Also given that you are going to have to check behind on the turn if you aren't happy stacking off here then even when he pot c/r's his draws and checks the turn he gets two streets to improve. Like I only like calling flop if you intend to call down and as that has all kind of RIO implications then folding flop I think is best

[Line Us]

well tbf I did say I wasn't getting hung up on the open at all and DrJff quoted the smaller of the two paragraphs which is fair enough given it was the point he wanted to respond to.

The other paragraph suggests why I think the flop is a fold like it's obvious the villain in the hand has just mashed the pot button but if the intention is to fold if he pots again then fold as he is potting too often for you to call flop and fold turn. Also given that you are going to have to check behind on the turn if you aren't happy stacking off here then even when he pot c/r's his draws and checks the turn he gets two streets to improve. Like I only like calling flop if you intend to call down and as that has all kind of RIO implications then folding flop I think is best

Ya i dont think preflop betsizing makes much difference here at all. I think its close enough here between fold and call flop. If we think he can checkraise enough of his draws here then I think its okay to call one and value bet if he doesn't fire again. If he doesnt have enough of these semibluffs in his range and his range is mostly value then its a fold on the flop.

I think most players will slow down enough on blank turns to peel one and value bet the turn but i think its pretty close and a fold is obviously fine too if you dont think he has enough semibluffs in his range here. I'm never calling down if the turn and river blank though, its just that I think his checkraising and bluffing range is going to be pretty wide on this flop but his continuing range on a blank turn will be alot narrower in comparision. And also he's probably not good enough to be thinking that because we have called a checkraise on the flop that our range is capped at one pair hands so he can keep betting as we can never call off 3 streets or something, he'll bascially get to blank turns with either aq, a set or a K or A high flush draw and I dont think many players will keep firing which will force him to play his hand face up.

That was a bit of a ramble but bascially its a shit enough spot without having a read on the villians checkraising range and its going to be pretty hard to know if a flop call is correct or not.

[tipp86]

And also he's probably not good enough to be thinking that because we have called a checkraise on the flop that our range is capped at one pair hands so he can keep betting as we can never call off 3 streets or something,
.

I found this point interesting. Im pretty sure that i will play this hand the same way with a set 50% of the time. I know there is a lot of draws out there but it wouldnt be mad to just flat a set here.

[Line Us]

I found this point interesting. Im pretty sure that i will play this hand the same way with a set 50% of the time. I know there is a lot of draws out there but it wouldnt be mad to just flat a set here.

If your flat calling his checkraise with a set then your going to lose huge value long term here from his big draws that miss on the turn, definitely best to get the money in fast on this board, so many turns kill your action and others will put them ahead. Flatting a set here is bad because of the same reasons that I think calling the flop checkraise with tpgk is ok.

[scouser in dub]

Ya i dont think preflop betsizing makes much difference here at all. I think its close enough here between fold and call flop. If we think he can checkraise enough of his draws here then I think its okay to call one and value bet if he doesn't fire again. If he doesnt have enough of these semibluffs in his range and his range is mostly value then its a fold on the flop.

I think most players will slow down enough on blank turns to peel one and value bet the turn but i think its pretty close and a fold is obviously fine too if you dont think he has enough semibluffs in his range here. I'm never calling down if the turn and river blank though, its just that I think his checkraising and bluffing range is going to be pretty wide on this flop but his continuing range on a blank turn will be alot narrower in comparision. And also he's probably not good enough to be thinking that because we have called a checkraise on the flop that our range is capped at one pair hands so he can keep betting as we can never call off 3 streets or something, he'll bascially get to blank turns with either aq, a set or a K or A high flush draw and I dont think many players will keep firing which will force him to play his hand face up.

That was a bit of a ramble but bascially its a shit enough spot without having a read on the villians checkraising range and its going to be pretty hard to know if a flop call is correct or not.

I think there's a lot of really good points in your posts in this thread but I have a question. If villain has enough draws in his range that we are good calling the flop we have to bet the turn for value and protection? I agree that we have to bet if the villain checks btw, but given the fact that we have an spr of about 2 how are we reacting to villain check shoving the turn?

Another thing is that if our hand was JJ are you still calling the check raise cos personally from a perspective of relative hand strength KQ on this board isn't much different in as much as how it performs against his value range. Like I get that JJ doesn't have any blockers to his value range here and KQ is ahead of QJ but the rest of villains value range has us in pretty bad shape. Like we can check back JJ some of the time otf but if we bet it we have to fold to the c/r?

[Line Us]

I think there's a lot of really good points in your posts in this thread but I have a question. If villain has enough draws in his range that we are good calling the flop we have to bet the turn for value and protection? I agree that we have to bet if the villain checks btw, but given the fact that we have an spr of about 2 how are we reacting to villain check shoving the turn?

Ya i'd bet turn for value if he checks, not very big though, probably about half pot. I wouldnt really expect to get checkraised much if ever, i guess id fold to it though even getting a sick price.

Another thing is that if our hand was JJ are you still calling the check raise cos personally from a perspective of relative hand strength KQ on this board isn't much different in as much as how it performs against his value range. Like I get that JJ doesn't have any blockers to his value range here and KQ is ahead of QJ but the rest of villains value range has us in pretty bad shape. Like we can check back JJ some of the time otf but if we bet it we have to fold to the c/r?

Ya i'd probably check back JJ on that flop myself majority of the time, if i did bet it i think i'd fold to the check raise. I guess the 1 pair hands I'm bet calling his check raise would be AA,KK,AQ for sure and then it gets pretty close with KQ and QJ just because the villian could be checkraising a better Q some of the time and the combos in his value range would be ahead too often for it to be profitable to continue and we'd end up value towning ourselves alot. I think its a good example of why q or j high boards with a draw of some sort are so good to semibluff checkraise, you can put serious pressure on someone to fold the majority of their flop cbetting range by the river.