Raise Amount

[connie147]

Final table of a small live tournament, dealer dealt. Blinds 600-1200. UTG is an inexperienced player, even though that shouldnt affect the ruling.

UTG says to the dealer "raise 2400".
Players start to fold (6 handed) and dealer is telling the player to put out 2400 on the table. Player says "no, I said raise 2400, which means Im putting out 3600". I explained to the dealer that the player is entitled to raise 2400 on top of the bb as he is requesting to do. The bb disagrees with me (bb is an experienced player). I explain that the player is telling the dealer how much he intended to bet, and nobody was at a disadvantage as play had stopped and nobody had announced a call of the bet. The bb said he was at a disasvantage because he should be able to call a min raise in the bb instead of 3x bb raise.

I said Id stick the hand up for inspection here. (Just to make it clear, UTG said raise 2400 and not raise TO 2400). In my opinion, once UTG explains what he meant to do to the dealer, then his intended raise of 2400 on top of the bb is perfectly fine.

Opinions please.

[sligoboi]

To prevent angle shooting in the future I'd rule it as a min raise.

[Mellor]

The dealer could of been quicker off the mark to clarify the intentions. But the player has made his intentions clear, and it didn't change anything for any of the players that folded. BB is angle shooting imo so he can call.

Bet stands at 3600 and all players are reminded to make it clear by saying, 2400 MORE or ON TOP, or raise TO 3600 or 3600 TOTAL.

To prevent angle shooting in the future I'd rule it as a min raise.

The BB is angle shooting by insisting it was 2400 total. I see no reason why we should allow this. A warning to make it clear in future achieves just a much as a punishing the UTG player now.

[Micknail]

UTG has poor command of the English language, thus his incomplete sentence has caused confusion.

Like Mellor said, just in future clarify 'by' or 'to' in relation to raises. Simplez.

[KK82]

I've seen this a bit with inexperienced players. Seems like something they pick up in home games/seeing poker on tv... "I see your five and I'll raise you five"... That kinda thing. I'd say the bet UTG intended to make stands, but let him know to just say the total amount in future. Sounds like the BB just wants to see a cheap flop with his suited connectors.

[Guest]

If I had heard that I would have thought he was putting 3600 out there and not the min raise to 2400

[Flushdraw]

The dealer could of been quicker off the mark to clarify the intentions. But the player has made his intentions clear, and it didn't change anything for any of the players that folded. BB is angle shooting imo so he can call.

Bet stands at 3600 and all players are reminded to make it clear by saying, 2400 MORE or ON TOP, or raise TO 3600 or 3600 TOTAL.

The BB is angle shooting by insisting it was 2400 total. I see no reason why we should allow this. A warning to make it clear in future achieves just a much as a punishing the UTG player now.

Agree with nearly all of this in theory but...

I hate UTG's bet/announce with a passion. If i'm playing a game where blinds are 500/1k and someone throws out a 5k chip saying "Raise 2500" i'd never ever expect the bet to be 3500. I don't agree that his bet makes no difference to the people that already folded. I'd react different to a bet of 2400/3600.

The fact Connie said that he's an inexperienced player, and that the dealer wasn't quicker off the mark means that i'd allow his bet to stand this time but warn him and the other players to be clearer when announcing their bets in future.

[Mellor]

. I don't agree that his bet makes no difference to the people that already folded. I'd react different to a bet of 2400/3600.

I hate it too. I always say the word total, and I question people regarding their bets if they sound vague, even if I'm folding.

As for the part above. I know some times it makes a difference but I dont think it does here.
The players folded thinking it was 2400, so it's safe to assume they were folding had he made it 3600 total clearly. So the action hasn't been affected when Connie makes a ruling. So I don't see a problem with allowing his intention to stand.
Had there been two quick calls of 2400 then it would of been a lot trickier.

[Arazi]

Also I think to make an accurate ruling we'd need to be there.
IMO "Raise 2400" means a raise to 3600 but,
"Raise (pause), 2400" could mean either raise 2400 total or raise an extra 2400.
We'd need to see body language etc to make a judgement on the true intentions.

Common sense needs to prevail so I'd make a ruling on what the dealer interpreted the action as and then explain the cause of the confusion to the inexperienced player.

[starofcctv4]

Ive come across this before with inexperienced players when their understanding of a raise is that over the blind!So here you would think he/she meant raise to 3600 total, so by this I think the 3600 raise is legit and shame on the BB for trying to get a cheaper flop whe its not a serious tourney or cash game!this should be explained to the amateur involved and they will know for next time making it a positive learning experience for the player not being afraid to make a mistake the next time!

[ghostface]

If all that was said was 'raise 2400' than I'd make him put out 2400. If a player announces a figure that is the bet IMO. If he said 'raise 2400 extra' I'd see that differently altho I don't know why someone would do that in the first place.

[ghostface]

Ive come across this before with inexperienced players when their understanding of a raise is that over the blind!So here you would think he/she meant raise to 3600 total, so by this I think the 3600 raise is legit and shame on the BB for trying to get a cheaper flop whe its not a serious tourney or cash game!this should be explained to the amateur involved and they will know for next time making it a positive learning experience for the player not being afraid to make a mistake the next time!

Shame on BB? If I was in bb's position and someone said raise 2400 I'd expect to see 2400 in the pot as he had nothing invested. The only situation where this would be different would be if it was folded to the sb and he said similar

[tylerdurden94]

If I was the TD I would ask what his intentions were ie 2,400 or 2,400 on top as Connie has explained it was 2,400 on top, would warm them then on any future action to be more verbal with the raise amount or what they announced would be binding.

Think some people playing it like they see on tv & in movies "I call and raise you x amount" lols to tv poker.

[bohsman]

It's a game of complete numbers, he says 2400, it's 2400.

[tglynn]

Also I think to make an accurate ruling we'd need to be there.
IMO "Raise 2400" means a raise to 3600 but,
"Raise (pause), 2400" could mean either raise 2400 total or raise an extra 2400.
We'd need to see body language etc to make a judgement on the true intentions.

Common sense needs to prevail so I'd make a ruling on what the dealer interpreted the action as and then explain the cause of the confusion to the inexperienced player.

This leaves it open to angle shooting IMO. His full bet should be 2400 unless he stated '2400 ontop' or something along those lines.

[Micknail]

Also I think to make an accurate ruling we'd need to be there.
IMO "Raise 2400" means a raise to 3600 but,
"Raise (pause), 2400" could mean either raise 2400 total or raise an extra 2400.
We'd need to see body language etc to make a judgement on the true intentions.

Common sense needs to prevail so I'd make a ruling on what the dealer interpreted the action as and then explain the cause of the confusion to the inexperienced player.

Where I deal its always interpreted as a total bet, unless expressly stated 'on top' or 'more'.