MTT endgame - small pocket pairs

[8611]

Just a q about optimum strategy with small pocket pairs at the end of tournaments, i.e., 6 handed or less where the average stacks are 10BB to 20BB.

Its a situation you will find yourself in a lot when you go deep and given that there are limited moves I think it should be easy to work out the right thing to do, so I'm wondering what people think.

Assuming this is a decent structure tournament and also assuming those that have made it this far have some idea how to play, the majority of the pots are uncontested raise / fold pots, with the occasional raise / repush / fold type pots. Basically everyone is live to the importance of stealing blinds and most people are live to the prospect of restealing lightish.

Its also a stage where everyone is in the money and the jumps are now big, prob 2-3 buy ins per placing increasing as they go up, i.e., the difference between winning or losing an all in may be the difference between a negligable profit for the night and paying for your next holiday.

Personally I HATE getting it all in with 22 - 66 in these situations as you are nearly always flipping and I hate flipping for big money (prob shouldn't be playing poker then TBH) unless there is no alternative.

Assuming that there is high potential to simply rob blinds over the next couple of hands to make up for lost raising chips (i.e., an alternative) as most raises will take the pots uncontested at this stage:-

- what do people think of raise folding 22 - 66 to a push when you're playing about 20BB? assuming raise is 2.5 BB from outside the blinds (we're short handed so position not as significant but lets assume LP) and theres approx 4 BB in blinds and antes in the middle?

- same q but playing 10BB

and if you're in the blinds holding 22 - 66 what do people think of folding to pushes in to you with 20BB?

and with 10BB?

and if a critical point is reached when you absolutely must call in both situations, where do people think it is, about 8BB?

thanks, I hope that makes sense

[8611]

should add:-

when does the the optimum raising play at this stage become a push with these holdings, (presumably when a fold to a repush becomes bad)?

[TommyGunne]

lol at raise folding anything with less than like 13bb. The only way you can do that is if the standard of your opponents is pretty bad. And that violates the conditions you set out yourself.

I would imagine that if everyone is playing raise/fold, that opening and then folding 22-66 is the worst thing possible to do. Its just nonsensical. You either open/call them, jam them, or open fold.

DUCY?

[TommyGunne]

should add:-

when does the the optimum raising play at this stage become a push with these holdings, (presumably when a fold to a repush becomes bad)?

If you take out "with these holdings" from this question, it makes sense.

Don't base your raisesizing on your holdings. Remeber that you're playing smart people according to your OP.

[8611]

I would imagine that if everyone is playing raise/fold, that opening and then folding 22-66 is the worst thing possible to do. Its just nonsensical. You either open/call them, jam them, or open fold.

DUCY?

I wouldn't have thought with 20BB tommy. clearly open pushing 20BB is not optiumum play, nor do I think raise calling an all in is optimal

[8611]

Don't base your raisesizing on your holdings. Remeber that you're playing smart people according to your OP.

if your point is that they will know my holding because I push I don't agree. the structure now dictates, prob much more so than the last two levels. I'm also not showing raises that get through so they won't have built up a definite picture of ranges for raises as against pushes

anyway they're not calling me with J8 cos they're putting me on 22 - 66 because I pushed as opposed to raising. but they may repush with J8. which makes open pushing the optimum play. I'm wondering at what amount of BBs does open pushing become the optimum play

am I to take it from your first answer that its 13BB? personally I think that's too high

[TommyGunne]

Ugh.

So you are going to be raise/folding some hands right? And nobody ever calls right? So why would you raise hands with low cards in them? They have precisely the same value as 23o, in such that the only way they get to showdown is if someone shoves and you call, which you don't want to do. You could just pick something like J2 to open and then fold, which is probably infinitely better than 22-66, in that in no case is it better to open any of the small pairs than it is J2, because it reduces the probability of JJ, AJ, KJ shoving over you, cos you have one of the jacks.

In other words, when you get to situations like this in tournaments, opening small pairs and folding to a shove is burning money. It is vastly superior to open hands containing a high card if you plan to fold to a shove.

I think you want an easy answer as to when tournament poker becomes shove/fold. The answer is that it depends, and I imagine that is not what you are looking for.

Against the type of random live donks, you could probably get away with minopening and folding with down to about 9-10bb. Any lower is pushing the boundaries of insanity. Against very good opponents, you should probably be openshoving up to 15bb I'd imagine, maybe a little more, tourney experts could tell you better.

If you have a ridiculously nitty image, you could probably afford to raise/fold with a slightly smaller stack.

Increasing bubble factors and ICM/ChipEV discrepancies mean the better it is to shove than raise/fold.

I've seen a few sitations myself where I've been pretty sure that openshoving 20bb was best, and I've seen a few very good tourney pros shove with this stack size sometimes too.

Basically, when you raise/fold with under like 11bb, you are either playing horribly, or else making wild assumptions about the nittiness of your opponents 3b shoving range. Sometimes, they can shove that nitty, but because you need so little equity against what is likely a pretty wide reshoving range when you are this deep and you say they are competent, then it is simply a mistake to open small, and it is much better to shove yourself. Unless of course, as mentioned earlier, you are playing that type of live donk who never reshoves without a very good hand.

Either way, opening small with small pairs in a shove/fold table is a pretty large mistake. It can be OK to shove them, but never to raise/fold, because that would be dominated game theoretically by opening J2o and other random shiite with high cards, which you have plenty of in your range to open and then fold to a shove.

Lastly, thinking that you can open small one hand and then shove the next with similar stack sizes against what you deem to be smart opponents, and them never ever being able to make inferences about this is frankly ridiculous. Either they will notice and make inferences or you are wildly off with the assumptions you set at the start of your OP that opponents are smart (and they are in fact mongoloid buffoons.)

[Mellor]

- what do people think of raise folding 22 - 66 to a push when you're playing about 20BB? assuming raise is 2.5 BB from outside the blinds (we're short handed so position not as significant but lets assume LP) and theres approx 4 BB in blinds and antes in the middle?

- same q but playing 10BB

I don't mind raise folding with 15-20 against regular opponents. I'd consider it down to almost 10 against very nitty guys, but not if they were in any way competent.
In fact, I open fold those hands some of the time in EP. Even when raising in LP, I'm not necessarily doing it over to strength of my hand, but rather the strength of the position and to capitalise on dead money (easy game obv)


I'd never raise fold 10 or less.

and if you're in the blinds holding 22 - 66 what do people think of folding to pushes in to you with 20BB?

and with 10BB?

I fold to a lot of pushes with 20, even with 10.

[eagle eye]

From playing sngs, for me I shove with small pocket pairs all the time with 20bbs or less but I fold anything less than 8's if I know I'm getting called.

[TommyGunne]

I don't mind raise folding with 15-20 against regular opponents. I'd consider it down to almost 10 against very nitty guys, but not if they were in any way competent.
In fact, I open fold those hands some of the time in EP. Even when raising in LP, I'm not necessarily doing it over to strength of my hand, but rather the strength of the position and to capitalise on dead money (easy game obv)


I'd never raise fold 10 or less.


I fold to a lot of pushes with 20, even with 10.

Is this with small PPs? With the assumption of opponents shove/folding, raising small PPs is strictly dominated by pretty much everything else.

In fact, even without that assumption, I would go as far as saying that opening small PPs against moderately skilled opponents is poor with less than 20bb if you aren't in your own shove/fold region.

[TommyGunne]

This is all if you want to raise/fold your small PP obv. Anything with any sort of blockers has a higher EV than opening 22. Even 42o, cos villains are more likely to shove 44 than 22.

If you plan on raise/folding, 22 is literally the worst possible hand to do it with. It would be the very last hand I'd put into my range.

If you are ever called its different obv, but if you play villains that get into 3bshove/fold mode with whatever amount of BBs then 22 is the nut bad hand to open if you want to fold to a shove.

[ianmc38]

As a general rule of thumb I'd shove any hand when i dont want someone rerasing me with say KQ or A9. Sure they might call anyway, but I wouldn't give them the option. Hands like JQ or 66 are easy shoves.

With a value hand say 99+ or AQ+ I'd raise call pre.

Depending on stack sizes I'd often shove small pairs over an open, based on a few other variables too obviously.