180bb 5bet pot

[Line Us]

No-Limit Hold'em, $10.00 BB (4 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($2351.50)
UTG ($1612)
Button ($1886.50)
Hero (SB) ($2777.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K, K
1 fold, Button bets $25, Hero raises $95, 1 fold, Button raises $245, Hero raises $510, Button calls $340

Flop: ($1230) 5, A, Q (2 players)
Hero?

Villian has 1276.5 behind. He is a pretty tight breakeven reg on PTR. 17/14 and a 4bet of only 1%. steals from the button 27%. I have 3bet him 2-3 times in the last 4 orbits and he has folded to all of them. I was playing really loose as there was a big fish at the table who had just bust, 37/32ish and the villian would have very few hands on me other than this I'd say, maybe one other sessions worth.

[Hectorjelly]

Tough hand. I would always start by checking.

[digiman]

Nightmare of a hand, I would check as well and just hope to get to SD

[Guest]

I'm not sure I'd 5bet without a read that he can continue with worse than AA which given your reads isn't too strong a possibility. Such an awful spot now. You're bank on BE to call a shove vs AA/QQ so check and see what happens first I guess.

[pok3rplaya]

4bet of only 1%.

Hero raises $510,

???

[pok3rplaya]

Seriously though, I don't think I would fold preflop unless I was in a really nitty mood because his 4bet range could be AK only or something silly. I don't like the 5bet either though because I don't think he continues with any less than AA or KK.

Either way, once there is an Ace on the flop I think it's pretty clear that you need to make your flush to win this one. So check first and go from there.

[Line Us]

Ya I guess i could have flatted his 4bet pre alright, I suppose we probably check our entire range on this flop anyway. I checked and he checked pretty quickly behind. Turn is a 10c, doesnt change a whole lot really, anyone bet now or just go hope to get to showdown again? Check folding really an option?

[digiman]

I'd check again

[Guest]

Shove the turn.

Just using his nitty image to try and steal PF. If he had AA/QQ he's more than likely just getting it all in PF. And even if he did peel a flop with a hand like that and hit there's no way he is checking that flop behind. I think he just gave up.

[digiman]

Shove the turn.

Just using his nitty image to try and steal PF. If he had AA/QQ he's more than likely just getting it all in PF. And even if he did peel a flop with a hand like that and hit there's no way he is checking that flop behind. I think he just gave up.

Thats by far the worst thing you can do

[Guest]

Thats by far the worst thing you can do

lol you say that without an explanation. It's not the fitz he's playing in where the donks check every street with the nuts expecting someone else to bet and then are forced to bet themselves on the river into a small pot and wonder to themselves 'why didn't i win more'.

So why is it the worst thing you can do. Go on.....

[digiman]

lol you say that without an explanation. It's not the fitz he's playing in where the donks check every street with the nuts expecting someone else to bet and then are forced to bet themselves on the river into a small pot and wonder to themselves 'why didn't i win more'.

So why is it the worst thing you can do. Go on.....

I've no idea why this is relevant. But anyway you should ask the following first just like you should do in any situation were you are checking, betting, folding, raising, going for a checkraise or whatever.

What am I hoping my opponent does?
Is this bet likely to accomplish that?
What hands am I trying to get to fold?
What hands am I trying to get to call?
What hands am I trying to get to raise?
What hand (that is different than my hand) am I representing?

Those questions came from an excellent piece Phil Galfond wrote in Bluff magazine a few years ago.

You should reply back to me with the answers to these and then you should see why its the worst thing you can do. There is no point in coming on here looking for someone to tell you the answers to everything, you need to apply your own logic and figure stuff out for yourself. For anyone that hasn't read the above article I think its a great step for players that might be breakeven/losing at small stakes to make jump to becoming a winning player at those stakes.

[Guest]

What am I hoping my opponent does? I hope he folds
Is this bet likely to accomplish that? Yes
What hands am I trying to get to fold? Marginal hands like mid-connectors which he 4bet with to try and steal the pot PF with his nitty image
What hands am I trying to get to call? Don't think he has a hand that he can call with
What hands am I trying to get to raise? Don't think he has a hand that he can raise with
What hand (that is different than my hand) am I representing? Ax?

Based on the info given id be putting him on complete air. Some might say why bet if you put him on air as you will win with a check/down. If you bet and he folds he doesn't see your cards plus if you check the turn and he decides just to open shove its pretty impossible to call. Bassically whoever bets first wins? That's just the way i see the hand.

.

Thanks for the article btw. Will read it later as his stuff is always good to read.

[Guest]

So you want to shove because you're hoping to fold out hands you beat and you don't think he has a hand he can call with?

[danutpeddler]

You Leveling eddie?


Such a sick hand and a great example of how important position is. I think I may chk again even though our hand becomes face up.

You reckon JJ or 1010 is in villain's range?

[Guest]

You Leveling eddie?

TBH I don't even know myself

[gorrrr72]

.

Thanks for the article btw. Will read it later as his stuff is always good to read.

Complete air when a nit flats a 5 bet.
Why would you think that? I don't think I've ever seen that in 5 years of playing NLH.

[Moneymaker]

I think your ranges are a little wide for a 5bet pot Eddie.

[ianmc38]

Eddie as this is a poker board, i advise you to heed Digimans advice. While it's not always possible to apply the system Jman suggests, it's a good way to develop the poker thought process if you can ask yourself those questions on a regular basis.

Sick hand. I guess with history preflop is ok. I think I c/f turn.

[danutpeddler]

TBH I don't even know myself

ok then

What am I hoping my opponent does? I hope he folds You should hope he folds a better hand if you want him to fold
Is this bet likely to accomplish that? Yes
What hands am I trying to get to fold? Marginal hands like mid-connectors which he 4bet with to try and steal the pot PF with his nitty image You beat these hands why do you want villain to fold?
What hands am I trying to get to call? Don't think he has a hand that he can call with We're obvviously not betting for value here
What hands am I trying to get to raise? Don't think he has a hand that he can raise with doesn't apply here either
What hand (that is different than my hand) am I representing? Ax? If we bet the turn we are representing AA/QQ/AK maybe AQ (big part of villain's range)

Based on the info given id be putting him on complete air.
Nit never has air in a 5bet pot

[gorrrr72]

Neither of you can have a straight or a flush so c/f the turn. I can't see him betting if he has KK himself.

[Moneymaker]

What's our line on Q high rainbow boards? J high mono boards? 7 high two to a flush boards?

[gorrrr72]

What's our line on Q high rainbow boards? J high mono boards? 7 high two to a flush boards?

TBH once he flats the 5 bet I think I need a king to win this one.

[Line Us]

What's our line on Q high rainbow boards? J high mono boards? 7 high two to a flush boards?

I was happy enough at the time (with the dynamic we had) with stacking off pre so id probably get it in on all those 3 boards tbh, my line would probably be check call rather than jamming, maybe bet the 7 high one. In a vacuum though versus a nit I dont think the 5bet pre is best this deep like people have said and if I had being playing more straightforward I think I'd have flatted his 4bet most of the time and taken it from there.

[Line Us]

Shove the turn.

Just using his nitty image to try and steal PF. If he had AA/QQ he's more than likely just getting it all in PF. And even if he did peel a flop with a hand like that and hit there's no way he is checking that flop behind. I think he just gave up.

Myself and Eddie are on the same wavelength anyway! I had a major brainfart and shoved the turn, still not sure why I decided to turn my hand into a bluff, dont think he's ever folding better etc. I guess its a chek fold on the turn as played, be pretty hard to see him bluffing the turn ever if checked to again.

edit: We have ~29% equity versus his probable calling range on the turn too, so maybe check call and jam arnt as bad as they appear at first.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

396 games 0.005 secs 79,200 games/sec

Board: Ad Qd 5d Tc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 28.788% 28.79% 00.00% 114 0.00 { KcKd }
Hand 1: 71.212% 71.21% 00.00% 282 0.00 { AA, QQ, AQs }

[Moneymaker]

He had the Aces yeah?

[Line Us]

He had the Aces yeah?

No, he didnt have QQ or AQ either but he did call! This is why I think my turn jam is really bad, I thought he might fold the type of hand he called with.

[Guest]

No, he didnt have QQ or AQ either but he did call! This is why I think my turn jam is really bad, I though he might fold the type of hand he called with.

So i was right about something. Just because he is a nit doesn't mean he HAS to have a good hand. Nits can have huge non-showdown winnings and imo they nearly always have junk/moderate hands.

Ill take a stab at AxJd

[Line Us]

So i was right about something. Just because he is a nit doesn't mean he HAS to have a good hand. Nits can have huge non-showdown winnings and imo they nearly always have junk/moderate hands.

Ill take a stab at AxJd

Not too hard to hand read when I said he doesnt have AA/QQ/AQ in fairness! Anyway he had Ah3d, looks like he decided to 4bet bluff me with the A blocker and then made the mistake of peeling the 5bet supelight pre. It still makes the turn shove bad as I couldnt get the bottom of his range to fold, he never has junk here Eddie btw, I'm almost always beat because regs (at this level) 4bet bluff ranges consist of so many Ax hands and never just random cards.

[danutpeddler]

Not too hard to hand read when I said he doesnt have AA/QQ/AQ in fairness! Anyway he had Ah3d, looks like he decided to 4bet bluff me with the A blocker and then made the mistake of peeling the 5bet supelight pre. It still makes the turn shove bad as I couldnt get the bottom of his range to fold, he never has junk here Eddie btw, I'm almost always beat because regs (at this level) 4bet bluff ranges consist of so many Ax hands and never just random cards.

Least you knew you were bluffing . Diamond one time!

Hate his call pre. You pretty much outplayed him into making that mistake and he sucks out sick game.
Interesting example of what calls here though.

[Moneymaker]

Not too hard to hand read when I said he doesnt have AA/QQ/AQ in fairness! Anyway he had Ah3d, looks like he decided to 4bet bluff me with the A blocker and then made the mistake of peeling the 5bet supelight pre. It still makes the turn shove bad as I couldnt get the bottom of his range to fold, he never has junk here Eddie btw, I'm almost always beat because regs (at this level) 4bet bluff ranges consist of so many Ax hands and never just random cards.

Sick. Ul, unless the diamond rolled off of course. How on earth does he flat the 5bet, lol pokeraments.

[Line Us]

Least you knew you were bluffing . Diamond one time!

Hate his call pre. You pretty much outplayed him into making that mistake and he sucks out sick game.
Interesting example of what calls here though.

Ya a lovely 4d on the river so if I'd have check the turn he probably goes broke some of the time on the river because he would think his 3d is probably good a decent ammount.

[danutpeddler]

Ya a lovely 4d on the river so if I'd have check the turn he probably goes broke some of the time on the river because he would think his 3d is probably good a decent ammount.

Wonder if the diamond in his hand factored into his turn call?
Probably not.


Did he snap call?

[Line Us]

Wonder if the diamond in his hand factored into his turn call?
Probably not.


Did he snap call?

Yup snapped, I had about 0% fold equity id say! I'd say it probably would be the deference between him calling and folding imo. Gives him about twice as much equity over my turn shoving range, so he doesnt have to catch me bluffing too often at all for it to be good.

Board: Ad Qd 5d Tc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 69.242% 69.24% 00.00% 457 0.00 { AA, KcKd, KdKh, KdKs, QQ, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 30.758% 30.76% 00.00% 203 0.00 { Ah3d }


Board: Ad Qd 5d Tc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 83.030% 83.03% 00.00% 548 0.00 { AA, KcKd, KdKh, KdKs, QQ, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 16.970% 16.97% 00.00% 112 0.00 { Ah3h }

[cardshark202]

the 4bet% of 1% is not that much use unless you have tons of hands on him. Given your history I don't mind the 5bet too much although I think I prefer to just call the 4bet. Thing is, when you just call a 4bet oop, it looks super strong, especially if you have a tight-ish image. It pretty much removes bluffs from your range but it will mean you take a flop against a much wider range and you do give him more room to spew.

As played though, he can def just have called AK or something pre. I think he folds all worse and calls all better if you shove turn so I check again. I would check/decide turn but I don't think he will try bluff very often. If he has something like JcJs I think he just tries to get to showdown and hope you have air. So almost certainly just c/f turn.

[Line Us]

the 4bet% of 1% is not that much use unless you have tons of hands on him. Given your history I don't mind the 5bet too much although I think I prefer to just call the 4bet. Thing is, when you just call a 4bet oop, it looks super strong, especially if you have a tight-ish image. It pretty much removes bluffs from your range but it will mean you take a flop against a much wider range and you do give him more room to spew.

As played though, he can def just have called AK or something pre. I think he folds all worse and calls all better if you shove turn so I check again. I would check/decide turn but I don't think he will try bluff very often. If he has something like JcJs I think he just tries to get to showdown and hope you have air. So almost certainly just c/f turn.

4bet stat is over 6.5k hands (mostly mined) so a big enough sample, ya i think you pretty much summed up how i should have played it.