tricky spot

[Angry-Ball]

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 20/40 Blinds (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

MP2 (t2490)
MP3 (t5205)
CO (t4425)
Button (t2470)
SB (t2905)
BB (t1045)
Hero (UTG) (t2830)
UTG+1 (t5160)
MP1 (t3345)

Hero's M: 47.17

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7, 7
Hero calls t40, 5 folds, Button bets t120, 1 fold, BB calls t80, Hero calls t80

Flop: (t380) 7, A, 6 (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets t196, 1 fold, Hero calls t196

Turn: (t772) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets t250, Hero raises to t500, Button calls t250

River: (t1772) A (2 players)


i suppose he has an ace?

[Bubbleking]

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 20/40 Blinds (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

MP2 (t2490)
MP3 (t5205)
CO (t4425)
Button (t2470)
SB (t2905)
BB (t1045)
Hero (UTG) (t2830)
UTG+1 (t5160)
MP1 (t3345)

Hero's M: 47.17

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7, 7
Hero calls t40, 5 folds, Button bets t120, 1 fold, BB calls t80, Hero calls t80

Flop: (t380) 7, A, 6 (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets t196, 1 fold, Hero calls t196

Turn: (t772) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets t250, Hero raises to t500, Button calls t250

River: (t1772) A (2 players)


i suppose he has an ace?

check raise the flop for me

bet small nd fold to a push now IMO

[Denny Crane]

ugh at the cmr. raise pre.

[Emmet]

small raise on flop, big raise on turn and then you probably don't see this tricky river.

He does have an Ace

[Angry-Ball]

check raise the flop for me

bet small nd fold to a push now IMO

why?
he was the aggressor preflop now let him dig, let him think that i'am chasing the flush

ugh at the cmr. raise pre.

why raise pre?
iam set mining here 77 dosn't play well utg postflop unless you hit a set which is one in every 8 times and is usually middle or bottom pair

small raise on flop, big raise on turn and then you probably don't see this tricky river.

He does have an Ace

do i really want him to fold on the turn to a 3 outer?

[Emmet]

he's not folding the turn if he calls the raise on the flop.. You get value from A8+

[Caf]

I play same pre and on the flop.
IMO pushing the turn is your best bet. whether you c/r or just open push the turn it looks to be the best place to c/r.
I dont think villain has to have an ace. he could have 88-kk. Defo possibilities IMO.

Check call riv since you got there unless he pushes all in. he pushes the riv and thats the only bet i fold to.

[Angry-Ball]

he's not folding the turn if he calls the raise on the flop.. You get value from A8+

i see what you are saying here but its a bit of a contradiction to your first statement

i think i should have made my c/r 700 on the turn but i didn't want to frighten him off.

[Emmet]

i see what you are saying here but its a bit of a contradiction to your first statement

i think i should have made my c/r 700 on the turn but i didn't want to frighten him off.

its not a contradiction, you want to get the money AI on the turn

[a-k-47]

raise pf flop and also a perfect flop to lead. CR is a dead give away for a monster.

[Denny Crane]

raising pre is easily the most profitable way to play the hand, limp calling gives away the initiative and makes your range very obvious. there's lots more ways to win than hitting sets, you're repping a stong range so you should win pots fairly easily.

c/r the turn shows a lot of strength, and pots grow exponentially so c/r the flop makes it much easier to get money in over the next few streets and you're range is wider. check min raising is just terrible.

even if the river had come a better card you couldn't get all your chips in because of how you've played it.

[Angry-Ball]

I play same pre and on the flop.
IMO pushing the turn is your best bet. whether you c/r or just open push the turn it looks to be the best place to c/r.
I dont think villain has to have an ace. he could have 88-kk. Defo possibilities IMO.

Check call riv since you got there unless he pushes all in. he pushes the riv and thats the only bet i fold to.

the minraise on the turn often gets your oppenent to shove. he just flat called it which could mean that he has a weak ace ,A2-10 or he is still chasing the fd. iam more inclined to think he has a weak ace maybe A8,A9,A10 or maybe KQhh

i check/folded to his allin on the river

[Angry-Ball]

raise pf flop and also a perfect flop to lead. CR is a dead give away for a monster.

raising pre is easily the most profitable way to play the hand, limp calling gives away the initiative and makes your range very obvious. there's lots more ways to win than hitting sets, you're repping a stong range so you should win pots fairly easily.

c/r the turn shows a lot of strength, and pots grow exponentially so c/r the flop makes it much easier to get money in over the next few streets and you're range is wider. check min raising is just terrible.

even if the river had come a better card you couldn't get all your chips in because of how you've played it.

raising these hands utg pre justs gets me into a whole heap of trouble allways!!

in the later stages of the game it is more profitable to raise utg with these hands but not in the third level

if the river had come a better card you could just jamm if he has an ace he won't fold, if any thing he thinks your a donk and are trying to bluff your way to winning the pot with nothing more than a busted flush

[Denny Crane]

i'd rather fold than limp call

[Sledgejammer]

Your river line isn't important, you need to dramatically improve your flop and turn play here, I also hate the limp call pre.

C/c this flop is awful, it's about the worst flop to slowplay a set on you could possibly imagine. What is he bet/folding the flop with but continuing on the turn or river with? Our c/r range on this board is quite wide given the amount of draws we could have in our range which means our opponent continues with a wide range, think of the amount of hands he could have. Any Ax, two pair, numerous draws, a lower or higher set, we want to get the money in against those hands now (Bar top set obv, but nothing we can do if he has that) and get value against them especially since there's so many bad turn cards both for our hand and for his.

If the turn comes the five of hearts, how much money do you think we're getting in against a bare ace now? Even 66 isn't loving stacking off and neither are we since our opponent can have improved in so many ways.

When you check call this flop what's your plan for future streets? What range of hands do you think your opponent has, or he will percieve us to have, when we do it that makes it worthwhile? Slowplaying is fine, but you need a reason. Your logic can't be "I've a big hand, check call" you have to have a specific reason to slowplay, like a C/r would look too strong or we expect him to barrel alot etc. As a general rule, we should be looking to slowplay oop on an a67 two tone board with literally 0.0% of our range, this is a board where we want to get the money in and we want to get the money in now because the turn freezes the action so much or possibly worse, we allow a weak draw to peel in position and take the lead. And since our C/R range is wide here and we actually rep quite a narrow range of value hands, we gotta C/R. Also he's going to have a lot of draws here and the best way to get the money in is now, whereas most will check back the turn or just not get much money in. We get the money in on this flop so so much more often than any other street here.

The turn C/R is also poor, you need to get more money in, check call check min raise A) Tells even a poor player you've a huge hand, looks mainly like 6x here and B) Gets about the absolute minimum amount of money in, unless we've coolered our opponent or are coolered ourselves and the money was destined to go in.

tl/dr basically when we've a huge hand we need to manage stack sizes so there's less than a psb left to go in on the river, whatever way that is best varies, but taking a passive line because we've a huge hand and don't want our opponent to fold is not a good way to do it. You need to be thinking about future streets and have a plan for the hand that is "I've a huge hand, the pot is x, effective stacks are y, how best do I get all or as much as possible of the money in"

[Denny Crane]

if the river had come a better card you could just jamm

you could but you're gonna make more money setting up the pot properly

[Caf]

the minraise on the turn often gets your oppenent to shove. he just flat called it which could mean that he has a weak ace ,A2-10 or he is still chasing the fd. iam more inclined to think he has a weak ace maybe A8,A9,A10 or maybe KQhh

i check/folded to his allin on the river

I never min reraise. I never min raise(unless it puts opponent allin of course!) and i hate that kind of play. The idea that this min reraise on the turn will lead to a push from villain most of the time seems crazy too IMO.
Looking at other comments since earlier, it is clear that this flop is not to be slow played for obvious reasons as pointed out above.

[Angry-Ball]

so what ye are all saying is that ye would love to see me sitting down at ye're table

[Angry-Ball]

i have taken the advice on board

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 200/400 Blinds 50 Ante (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

MP3 (t2835)
CO (t11200)
Button (t11841)
SB (t4943)
BB (t2920)
UTG (t13175)
Hero (UTG+1) (t14274)
MP1 (t7827)
MP2 (t14232)

Hero's M: 13.59

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 9, 9
1 fold, Hero bets t1000, 6 folds, BB raises to t2870 (All-In), Hero calls t1870

Flop: (t6390) 3, 10, Q (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t6390) 7 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t6390) 5 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: t6390
Main pot: t6390 between BB and Hero, won by BB

Results:
BB had 4, 10 (one pair, tens).
Hero had 9, 9 (one pair, nines).
Outcome: BB won t6390


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 200/400 Blinds 50 Ante (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

MP2 (t7920)
MP3 (t10100)
CO (t10891)
Button (t3643)
SB (t4940)
BB (t12725)
Hero (UTG) (t12254)
UTG+1 (t3942)
MP1 (t16832)

Hero's M: 11.67

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9, 9
Hero bets t1000, 6 folds, SB calls t800, BB calls t600

Flop: (t3450) 8, Q, A (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets t2000, 1 fold, BB raises to t11675 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: t7450
Main pot: t7450 returned to BB

Results:
BB didn't show
Outcome: BB won t7450

[Sledgejammer]

First hand there is fine obviously, BBs shove is lol bad, you got very unlucky.

Think I check back the flop in hand 2 though. Also don't be fooled by short term results, especially since hand 1 resulted in us getting someone to get their entire stack over the line with the monster of t4o

[Emmet]

you cant compare situations with M of 45 to an M of 10

[Angry-Ball]

First hand there is fine obviously, BBs shove is lol bad, you got very unlucky.

Think I check back the flop in hand 2 though. Also don't be fooled by short term results, especially since hand 1 resulted in us getting someone to get their entire stack over the line with the monster of t4o

i guess hand 1 he just went with the any 2 cards theory he had only 7 bbs

but you would have checked the flop on the second hand?
what then ? just give up on it

[Sledgejammer]

No, see what happens on the turn. It's obviously a spectacularly awful flop for your hand, I don't really like betting because we struggle to make better fold (Maybe TT and JJ which are unlikely anyway, but probably not even a weak queen) and never get called by worse. We close the betting, so just peel a turn card and see what people do. The turn may be checked to you anyway.

But there's no shame in giving up anyway, if that's the right thing to do, our hand is third pair with only 2 outs to improve (Even at that the 9h gives us a second best hand a decent percentage of the time anyway), it's fairly worthless on that flop. All depends on what we think our opponents will do when we check back the flop.

[Angry-Ball]

No, see what happens on the turn. It's obviously a spectacularly awful flop for your hand, I don't really like betting because we struggle to make better fold (Maybe TT and JJ which are unlikely anyway, but probably not even a weak queen) and never get called by worse. We close the betting, so just peel a turn card and see what people do. The turn may be checked to you anyway.

But there's no shame in giving up anyway, if that's the right thing to do, our hand is third pair with only 2 outs to improve (Even at that the 9h gives us a second best hand a decent percentage of the time anyway), it's fairly worthless on that flop. All depends on what we think our opponents will do when we check back the flop.

surely then the book is right and you should only open utg with AQ+ and QQ+
opening utg is a strong move in it self so surely checking when your only 2 oppenents have allready checked to you is just super weak and then folding to a turn bet surely points a giant neon sign with donk written on it straight at your head for the rest of the table to see.
iif we can't continue postflop why open preflop?

[Sledgejammer]

Well yeah, if you were somehow aware of the fact that you'd get two callers and the flop would be AQx 2t, then open mucking would be the best play. It's not like it's a blanket rule, because we can't continue on this flop we can't continue on any flop. Also we're risking 1k to win 1.05k pre flop, so even if our raise gets through half the time that would show an immediate profit never mind anything else.

Also don't be afraid of doing something because it appears weak. Weakness or appearing weak is irrelevant, making the best poker decision is the only consideration. If that's bet check raise fold whatever it doesn't matter how it looks, it's what you should do.

In this hand, 99 is too strong to fold UTG. We got two callers and the flop sucked, it happens, being the pfr doesn't give us any divine right to win the pot automatically.

[AndyFatBastard]

opening utg is a strong move in it self so surely checking when your only 2 oppenents have allready checked to you is just super weak and then folding to a turn bet surely points a giant neon sign with donk written on it straight at your head for the rest of the table to see.

So? Let them think that. Use it to your advantage.

[Angry-Ball]

Also don't be afraid of doing something because it appears weak. Weakness or appearing weak is irrelevant, making the best poker decision is the only consideration. If that's bet check raise fold whatever it doesn't matter how it looks, it's what you should do.

In this hand, 99 is too strong to fold UTG. We got two callers and the flop sucked, it happens, being the pfr doesn't give us any divine right to win the pot automatically.

but if opening under the gun and then folding to a bet on the turn after a c/c/c flop is ok
then surely we are opening our selves up to being 3bet every time we open up and in this instance that would have meant i either pushed with a medium pair of folded.given my stack size
so therefore it would be better to fold these type hands pre utg

[Angry-Ball]

So? Let them think that. Use it to your advantage.

thats what i was doing when icbet the flop

[Sledgejammer]

Smaller pairs should be folds utg with your stack size in the hand above, yeah. 99 is too strong, though. Because if we get 3 bet we can play for stacks if we've the right reads (And can call some short stack shoves profitably), and we also don't have to improve on the flop to play for stacks, we can play for stacks comfortably on a wide number of flops. Just so happens we caught a really, really crap one here.

Also don't be so quick to assume that people are that good at adjusting to your tendencies. They generally aren't.

[Laois Hammer]

[QUOTE=eight-ball;33770
why raise pre?
iam set mining here 77 dosn't play well utg postflop unless you hit a set which is one in every 8 times and is usually middle or bottom pair



do i really want him to fold on the turn to a 3 outer?[/QUOTE]

why limp/call with a hand you reckon dosent play well?
Your turning your hand face up to being a small/mid pair when you limp call imo.

You dont want him to fold you want to get his stack in.

You took the worst line possible in this hand (sorry, but its true)
the limp call is bad
the check call on this board is a leak
the min check raise is a leak.

[Moneymaker]

Sledgejammer has said it all in here.

/thread.

[pok3rplaya]

ugh at the cmr. raise pre.

?? The cmr is the best played street!